The West Block – Episode 14, Season 11

THE WEST BLOCK

Episode 14, Season 11

Sunday, January 30, 2022

Host: Eric Sorensen

Guests:

Omar Alghabra, Transport Minister

Andriy Shevchenko, Former Ukrainian Ambassador to Canada

James Cumming, Former Conservative MP

Location: Ottawa, ON

Eric Sorensen: This week on The West Block: Protesters bring their fight against COVID restrictions to Ottawa. Truck convoys from across the country converge on Parliament Hill. The truckers and their supporters want vaccine mandates lifted. We’ll speak to Transport Minister Omar Alghabra about the protests and concerns about what’s fuelling the movement behind them.

Chrystia Freeland: “This is a struggle between democracy and authoritarianism.”

Eric Sorensen: Canada steps up its support for Ukraine, promising military aide but not weapons. We’ll get reaction from the former Ukrainian ambassador to Canada.

The Conservative Party looks to the future…

Erin O’Toole, Conservative Party Leader: “There’s a lot I have to learn and there’s a lot that went well. There’s things that didn’t.”

Eric Sorensen: We’ll talk to former MP James Cumming about his report into the election results and what that could mean for party leader Erin O’Toole.

It’s Sunday, January 30^th, and this is The West Block.

Hello, and thanks for joining us. I’m Eric Sorenson. Mercedes Stephenson is away today. And you can probably hear it on the streets below, it has been a weekend like few others on Parliament Hill.

The convoys began arriving Friday from all over the country on Saturday, and frigid temperatures, demonstrations, stepped up.

Unidentified Male: “I’m just hoping that they stop some of these mandates.”

Eric Sorensen: What began as a call by some truckers to end vaccine mandates at the border, became a flash point for pent up frustrations with all pandemic restrictions.

Unidentified Male: “They’ve done nothing but fear monger people, tell them to be afraid, lock them up in their homes.”

Eric Sorensen: Some even set out a plan to replace Canada’s elected government.

Unidentified Male: “It’s either Trudeau steps down or the mandates are lifted across Canada.”

Eric Sorensen: The prime minister had this to say about the protest.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau: “Small fringe minority holding unacceptable views do not represent the views of Canadians.”

Eric Sorensen: Still, the unpredictability was serious enough that Justin Trudeau and his family were moved from their Rideau Cottage residence to a secure location. And it’s not clear how long the turmoil encircling Parliament Hill will last.

And joining us to talk about this extraordinary weekend in the nation’s capital is Transport Minister Omar Alghabra.

Minister, as we speak, it is late on a Saturday afternoon. The protests are in full swing, and from what we are seeing, and also what we’re hearing behind me right now, it’s obviously about more than vaccine mandates at the border. But on that issue, given what you’re seeing out there, are you reconsidering it all to drop those mandates at the border?

Omar Alghabra, Transport Minister: Eric, thank you for the opportunity and it’s good to be back with you on The West Block. Look, our government has been consistent from day one. The science has been clear: vaccines are our best tool out of this pandemic, and our government has committed to Canadians from the beginning to do everything we can to protect their health and safety and also our economy. And we’ve been rolling out the vaccine requirement throughout critical sectors of our economy and we started with the federal government, where now we’re up to 99 per cent of federal government workers are fully vaccinated. We then went on to implement it in the transportation sector, but we gave truckers more time to get vaccinated and we worked with stakeholders, including the Canadian Trucking Alliance and when we felt we reached a critical mass, where almost 90 per cent of truck drivers are fully vaccinated, we felt it was the right time to require vaccination so we can encourage the remaining truckers to get vaccinated and to ensure that we maintain resilience in critical sectors of our industry, including supply chains.

Eric Sorensen: Have you met with the truckers, or would you plan to meet with them?

Omar Alghabra, Transport Minister: Eric, I’ve been meeting with various organizations, including representatives of truckers for the last while. On Monday, I will be hosting a national summit on supply chains that will include representatives from truckers and the Canadian Trucking Alliances. So I could tell you that my job requires me to meet with all voices, to hear various perspectives including criticism, and that will continue as something that I’m committed to.

Eric Sorensen: There are many groups here, and when the prime minister of the country moves from his residence on a weekend like this, it raises questions about security. Are there security concerns?

Omar Alghabra, Transport Minister: Eric, you know I have full confidence in our law enforcement agencies who are doing a tremendous job. The prime minister, as we all know, is now in self-isolation because one of his kids has tested positive for COVID. So as far as I’m concerned, you know our law enforcement agencies are going to do what they need to do, but the prime minister continues to be in self-isolation.

Eric Sorensen: You know things are happening here just on the fly and I know you’re the transport minister, but I wanted to ask you about the group that has produced this manifesto to replace the government. Millions of dollars has been raised through GoFundMe. Is there anything you can tell us about the group, or about this money, all this money? You know, who are they being funded by? Is it something that’s coming from other governments trying to sew descent here?

Omar Alghabra, Transport Minister: There are a lot of people who are frustrated because of COVID and the length that COVID has gone on and the public health measures that we all have to endure. I’m one of those people who’s frustrated. So I’m very sympathetic to those who are hoping to see COVID end as quickly as possible, who are frustrated with these restrictions. Unfortunately, there are many elements within this protest movement that really carries extreme views. You know some of it could be as benign as they want to overthrow the government and some of it talks about violence and hate. Those are troubling claims. Those are troubling demands and I think they’re offside with most Canadians. So, you know, in Canada, we have the right to protest and I hope this protest continues to be peaceful and civil. But, you know, some of those views held by the organizers are extremely troubling and alarming for most Canadians.

Eric Sorensen: We heard the prime minister say that some in the protests are a small fringe minority. There are some protesters here who think he means them, but is that the right language to use if you’re trying to turn down the temperature?

Omar Alghabra, Transport Minister: As I said, Eric, my job—our government’s job, is to listen to everyone and to build bridges and to hear their points of views, even the ones who we disagree with. And our job as a government is to do everything we can to manage this pandemic, to expedite its ending—its closure and it’s coming to an end. And even for those who disagree with us. That’s our duty towards them, to do everything we can to protect their health and safety, to protect their jobs, to protect our economy and that’s what we will continue to do.

Eric Sorensen: You know there are people here who don’t want to have their message hijacked and the basic message that they may represent a larger percentage than some of the narrow interests here, which is we’re really frustrated. What can you say to them? Seeing this kind of frustration on the streets, what can you say to them to allay that frustration?

Omar Alghabra, Transport Minister: I say I share their frustration. I say, our prime minister shares their frustration. It is—it’s normal. It’s natural. This pandemic has caused a lot of disruptions. Canadians have sacrificed a lot, and we share the objective of coming out of this pandemic as quickly as possible. And that’s hence why we’re following public health advice to do everything we can to accelerate the end of this pandemic. And part of those tools that we have today is vaccination. So I bring it back to our policies, Eric. It is precisely why we think vaccination is our best tool. And the sooner we can end this pandemic, the sooner we can get back to normal. So these public health measures are temporary and we need everybody to follow public health and get vaccinated. And the sooner we do this, the sooner we can end the pandemic.

Eric Sorensen: And with this demonstration, could it turn into an occupation and then what does the government, and the police for that matter, do? You have the House who’s coming back on Monday, how are you going to deal with people if they don’t intend to leave?

Omar Alghabra, Transport Minister: I have full confidence in our law enforcement agencies, the Ottawa Police Service, the RCMP, the Parliamentary Protective Service; they’re all dealing with protestors with extreme professionalism and seriousness. And so, you know, I have confidence in them. So I will leave the operations of security to them. I will continue to be focused on doing whatever I can to protect the health and safety of Canadians, but also to protect our economy.

Eric Sorensen: Minister, thank you for joining us today.

Omar Alghabra, Transport Minister: Thank you very much, Eric.

Eric Sorensen: Up next: Taking stock of Canada’s effort in Ukraine. We’ll speak to the former Ukrainian ambassador to Canada.

Eric Sorensen: Ottawa has announced more measures to help Ukraine against the threat of a Russian invasion. More troops will be sent as part of the training mission: Operation Unifier. And the mission will be extended for another three years. The government will also send military aide, but not weapons, unlike other allies such as Britain and the United States.

Here’s what Oleksiy Danilov, the Secretary of Ukraine’s National Security and Defence Council, told Global’s Crystal Goomansingh when she asked what was needed.

Oleksiy Danilov-Ukraine’s Secretary of the National Security and Defence Council (Voice of interpreter): It’s defence weapons…weapons…and once more, defence weapons.

Eric Sorensen: Joining us now from Kyiv, is former Ukrainian ambassador to Canada Andriy Shevchenko. Mr. Shevchenko, thank you for joining us. The request was blunt: weapons, weapons, weapons. First of all, what kind of weapons does Ukraine want from Canada?

Andriy Shevchenko, Former Ukrainian Ambassador to Canada: Well, I’ll start by saying that we are very grateful to Canada for supporting us. And starting from 2015, Canada has been with us and is much appreciated here. And when it comes to the recent announcement by the Canadian government, we do have some mixed feels here. First, of course, when we welcomed the expansion and extension of Operation Unifier, it’s an extraordinary joint training exercise, but we are disappointed that there are no weapons. And we hope to get both, and I think we still have to continue concessions with the Canadian government about this.

Eric Sorensen: And what kind of weapons would you like?

Andriy Shevchenko, Former Ukrainian Ambassador to Canada: The weapons that would be a good signal of deterrence towards Russia, it’s next generation anti-armour weapons and they’re capable of stopping armed vehicles and tanks up to 800 metres. So we do hope that Canada and our other friends will follow this suit and will follow the U.S. and the U.K.

Eric Sorensen: Our prime minister hasn’t said specifically why he wouldn’t send firearms. It may be seen as an attempt to de-escalate. Do you think that it’s going to escalate? Do you think an attack is imminent?

Andriy Shevchenko, Former Ukrainian Ambassador to Canada: We believe that we can avoid this catastrophic loss of lives if we do the right thing. And when I say we that means not just Ukraine; it means all nations of the free world which are concerned about the global security. And when it comes to the weapons, it is one of the most powerful signals of the threats towards Russia. And we do need them now, not when the aggression escalates farther. Putin, Kremlin, his generals and the Russian soldiers have to clearly realize the consequences of their moves.

Eric Sorensen: Some will say that weapons from Canada, even a lot, would not be significant enough to deter Russia. Are sanctions the way to go? Is diplomacy the way to go? Like what can work short of military engagement?

Andriy Shevchenko, Former Ukrainian Ambassador to Canada: Well, all of those tracks are necessary and might be helpful, but again when it comes to the weapons, it’s not just about the quantity, but it’s also about the signal that Canada is sending here to our part of the world. But when it comes to other ways to influence the situation, to impact the situation, Operation Unifier and its extension is a very strong signal and I do not want to underestimate its importance. The presence of Canadian soldiers or Canadian officers here is very important and more than 30 thousand of Ukrainian men and women in uniform have been through Canadian training.  It has already been helping us to save lives of our service men and service women. And also sanctions, it is a very powerful way to influence the Russian decisions and we strongly encourage Canada to work with our other allies and in solidarity, introduce more sanctions on Russia.

Eric Sorensen: Vladimir Putin is seeing the response from NATO and from the rest of the world. Do you think he’s having second thoughts?

Andriy Shevchenko, Former Ukrainian Ambassador to Canada: I think he does, and I think what we are witnessing in many senses, is blackmail. He’s blackmailing the West and the free world and that means we should follow the situation very closely with our eyes open. But again, although it seems to be more sort of a psychological warfare, as of the moment, it can turn very physical, very brutal and militarily catastrophic in no time. And it’s extremely dangerous and of course, it’s a sanction of existential threat for my country.

Eric Sorensen: Ukraine cannot uncouple itself from Russia in terms of its geography, its history. Is there anything you can do at this point that would reassure Russia, I mean, perhaps you know like backing off of insisting on being in NATO?

Andriy Shevchenko, Former Ukrainian Ambassador to Canada: Sooner or later, Russia will have to realize that it has to leave its neighbours alone and it has to respect every nation’s right to choose its own destiny. And the sooner it happens, the better it’s going to be for Russia. We understand that Putin might be very scared of the democratic choice that Ukraine has made, because if Ukraine succeeds, he’s going to have a very difficult time explaining to his own people why the Russians cannot have free speech and democracy at home. But look, it’s 21^st century and the sooner Putin, Kremlin and the Russians understand the reality, the better it is going to be for them.

In 2013, GDP in Russia was $16 thousand U.S. per capita. Now it’s $10 U.S. per capita, 40 per cent less. That is just one of the many results of this war which Russia started against Ukraine.

Eric Sorensen: Mr. Shevchenko, I can only imagine what it must be like for people in Ukraine at this moment. Thank you for joining us today.

Andriy Shevchenko, Former Ukrainian Ambassador to Canada: Thank you so much.

Eric Sorensen: Up next: The Conservative Party at a crossroads. We’ll talk to former Conservative MP James Cumming about his report into last fall’s election results, and whether the path forward includes leader Erin O’Toole.

Erin O’Toole, Conservative Party Leader: “Myself as leader, I’m responsible for the loss. And I want to make sure that we gain the confidence of more Canadians, so I will make changes myself to our team, to our strategy and within our party.”

 Eric Sorensen: That’s Conservative leader Erin O’Toole reacting to a new report on his party’s disappointing results in the last election. The author of that report is former MP James Cumming. He joins us now from Edmonton.

Mr. Cumming, thank you for joining us. You know, I thought about the last election. I watched it very closely. The Liberals were vulnerable and yet your party did not really improve electorally at all. In fact, you lost your seat in Edmonton. Was 2021 and opportunity lost?

James Cumming, Former Conservative MP: Well thank you for having me on your show and it’s great to be able to talk about the report that we put together. We had well over 400 people who weighed in on the report to be able to, you know, formulate what went right and what went wrong and make some recommendations. So, you know, I developed a very comprehensive report to determine, you know, what’ got to change. How do we have to position ourselves better? If anybody understands, it’s me. I’ve been in three elections and I’ve won one and lost two. So clearly, I understand what it’s like to be a candidate. I understand what it’s like to have volunteers and campaign managers, who all want to win. So I hope that recommendations and some of the things that we put forward will better position us to win and be able to support all those people who have worked so bloody hard to try and get elected.

Eric Sorensen: The review is confidential. There are reports it’s suggesting Mr. O’Toole was over coached. How would you say he might have been over managed, if he was?

James Cumming, Former Conservative MP: You know, towards the end of the campaign, there is a belief that he was over coached, that he wasn’t himself. That he wasn’t presenting the way that people have gotten to know him and what I found on the campaign is that people at the start would say don’t really know him, but then towards the end saying, you know what? I’m starting to get to know this guy and I like him. And that person that was on the front end of the campaign, the belief was, saw less of it towards the tail end of the campaign and I know he’s spoken about that and spoken about areas that he’s got to improve.

Eric Sorensen: What does he have to do differently, do you think? What kind of different leader must he be?

James Cumming, Former Conservative MP: Well I think any time that you lead, a quality of a good leader is that you have to, you know, listen to what people around you and that’s why this report is quite powerful. Over 400 people weighed in and made suggestions on how he could better present himself, how he can, you know, be himself, be authentic. Trust his instincts and some of those things that leaders are always faced with. You know politics is a tough game. It’s a rough game, but you know, I think that I’m impressed to hear that he wants to improve and see how he can do better and deliver better.

Eric Sorensen: There was criticism of him putting the report aside, that he flip-flopped and in that sense, the party flip-flopped, whether it was guns or carbon tax. Changing positions mid-stream, is that a fair criticism?

James Cumming, Former Conservative MP: Well, I think political campaigns are different. They have ebbs and flows and, you know, there’s issues that come up as you go along. This was an incredibly divisive campaign. You know, the country, we’re in the midst of a pandemic. We had added lockdowns. There was just a lot going on that made it a very, very difficult campaign for all parties. And—but I do think that Canadians want to hear from Conservatives, from the Conservatives Party on various specifics about what they stand for and be decisive on what they stand for and why it will be impactful for Canadians and why people’s lives will be better with a government under Erin O’Toole and the Conservatives. And I think that’s an area, for sure, that people want to hear about.

Eric Sorensen: And they want to see a cohesive party that they can support and there is infighting in the party. Are you worried about that?

James Cumming, Former Conservative MP: Well there’s no ‘I’ in team. You know, I think every time I’ve been involved with teams is that, you know, you can have disputes. I think the second opinion is healthy, that it helps inform decisions. But at the end of the day, you have to come together and be able to come up with positions that you can all agree on. You know, my personal opinion is that I’ve never seen the country so divided. You know, I’m saddened by it, but there’s lots that we can agree on. And I think within the Conservative movement and the Conservative Party, there’s plenty that we can agree on and I think there’s plenty that Canadians can agree on as well. And I think those are the things we have to focus on within the party. What are the things that bring us together versus what are the things that divide us? And I think that’s the expectation of people, both for this party and quite frankly, that’s what Canadians want to see as well.

Eric Sorensen: But does that mean your party also has to reach out to Canadians in a bigger way? Because right now, it feels like there’s a narrower message. Your appeal, as you can see from the vote results, was in Western Canada. Is there more to be done to modernize the views of the party?

James Cumming, Former Conservative MP: Well I think that it’s fair comment that we have to reach out to more voters. We didn’t win the election. We won the popular vote, but we certainly didn’t win the seat count. So I think it’s fair to say that we have to expand our voter universe. Now that said, you know, I think a lot of people don’t necessarily line up with a party. They don’t identify themselves. They don’t buy memberships. They’re just looking for good balance, good quality government for like responsible decisions. They’re looking for some hope and some promise that their lives will get better and that a party will reflect that. So, you know, there has to be a broader outreach. The party has to expand its reach and hopefully can do so. And that will set us up well for success in a future election.

Eric Sorensen: Alright. Mr. Cumming, thank you.

James Cumming, Former Conservative MP: My pleasure.

Eric Sorensen: And that is our show for today. Thanks for watching. We’ll see you back here next Sunday. For The West Block, I’m Eric Sorenson.