THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 8, Season 9
Sunday, October 27, 2019
Host: Mercedes Stephenson
Guests: Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer,
Public Services and Procurement Minister Carla Qualtrough
Unpacking the Politics: Susan Delacourt, Ottawa Bureau Chief Toronto Star;
Joel-Denis Bellavance, Ottawa Bureau Chief La Presse
Location: Toronto
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau: “Canadians sent a clear message that they want their parliamentarians to work on things like affordability and the fight against climate change. I’m looking forward to working together with other parties and getting down to work.”
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: “We made incredible gains last night. More party—more people voted for our party than ever before. We got a million more votes than we’ve ever had before, a million more people voted Conservative. We won the popular vote last night. We made gains in almost every part of the country. This is just the first step, and the work starts immediately.”
NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh: “Out of the campaign that we ran, there is still a strong foundation in Quebec. We’re going to build on that and we’re never going to give up. We’re never going to give up on Quebec.”
Mercedes Stephenson: It’s Sunday, October 27th. I’m Mercedes Stephenson, and this is The West Block.
Justin Trudeau has won a minority government, and Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer is vowing to stay on and fight him, but what will he be fighting for and will his party give Andrew Scheer another shot in the next election? I sat down with the Conservative leader late last week for a post-election post-mortem. Here’s that conversation.
Mr. Scheer, thank you for joining us.
Conservative Party Leader Andrew Scheer: Thanks very much for having me.
Mercedes Stephenson: That last time we sat down and talked, we were out on the west coast. You’d just released your platform. It was 10 days out from the election and you told us, “I’m actually very pleased by our campaign.” You didn’t win. What happened?
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: I am disappointed in the results, I expected to do better. There are some reasons for optimism, some improvements that we can point to say that some important steps have been taken, but we’re going to conduct a thorough review of the campaign, all aspects of it and find out exactly where it is we need to do better.
Mercedes Stephenson: You ran against Justin Trudeau, a man who you branded as a liar and as a hypocrite, a man who had a lot of unforced heirs and self-inflicted mistakes. Why do you think you couldn’t convince voters to cast their ballot for you instead of for him?
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: Well it was always going to be a difficult task to take a first term majority government and win the next election. We got more votes, more seats. We’re the only national party to have done that, and we look at the fact that Justin Trudeau has returned with the weakest mandate in Canadian history as reasons for encouragement.
Mercedes Stephenson: But you didn’t get the seats where you needed them. You swept Alberta, you swept Saskatchewan, but you struggled around the GTA and the 905. The Bloc took a lot of the seats that you’d hope to get in Quebec. Why do you think that your message didn’t resonate in those key areas that you can’t win a federal election without?
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: I think you’re right to point to the rise of the Bloc and the fact that Alberta and Saskatchewan completely rejected the Liberal as something to be very concerned about. We have a more divided country.
Mercedes Stephenson: Do you think that was a mistake not to campaign with Doug Ford because he won a lot of the ridings that you lost that the Liberals took?
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: Premier Ford made a decision to stay focussed on provincial politics and he has a lot of work to do to clean up the Liberal mess there.
Mercedes Stephenson: But senior members of the Ford team say that they weren’t consulted, that you didn’t engage them. And you can love or hate Ford Nation, but they know how to mobilize votes, and as a result, you didn’t benefit from that grounding.
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: We did make gains in Ontario. Not enough, but there are some reasons to be optimistic, to look at this as the first step towards replacing the Liberals in the next election.
Mercedes Stephenson: That party’s scheduled to hold its convention in Toronto in April. Are you still planning for that to go ahead?
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: It’s absolutely going to go ahead. This is something that is part of our party’s democratic tradition that the leader is held accountable by the members, by a national council, by our caucus and by the people who are our grassroots organization.
Mercedes Stephenson: But that includes the leadership review and you’re supportive of that.
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: It’s automatic. It’s in our party constitution.
Mercedes Stephenson: Have you talked to Mr. Harper since election day?
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: Yeah, you know, I have, and I’ve reached out to many different Conservatives. I won’t go into, you know, all who I have and haven’t been speaking with.
Mercedes Stephenson: And what advice did Mr. Harper have for you?
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: I won’t go into a private conversation but look I’m taking this very seriously. We had great people running for us in every part of this country and many of them were not elected, and that’s disappointing to me.
Mercedes Stephenson: I want to talk about the personal side because politics is inherently personal. You are out there as the leader. How did it feel on Monday night when you saw those results and you realized you did not win?
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: Incredibly disappointing, but I am encouraged, you know, winning the most votes and seeing our seat total go up is encouraging. And the fact that there are a lot of building blocks there that we can build on is also encouraging, but it is difficult. It’s always difficult to fall short of goals that we’ve set ourselves. But there’s no one more disappointed than me in the results of the campaign, but there’s no one more eager to get it right and to fix the issues that didn’t work this time.
Mercedes Stephenson: Do you believe that someone who holds the kind of social Conservative values you do, can win in Canada today?
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: What’s important for me, and was important for me during the campaign, was to assure Canadians that on social issues that divide Canadians, divide Conservatives, we’re not going to reopen old debates and we’re not going to further divide the Canadians on those issues. So I do believe that Canada is a place that respects people who hold different points of view. Certainly our party does. We’re the only party that does and I believe that Canadians want to live in a country where you can have a disagreement on an issue without calling something un-Canadian as the Liberals did.
Mercedes Stephenson: Would you reconsider marching in a gay pride parade next year? Is that a possibility?
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: No, I’ve made it clear that I will choose other ways to show my support for the LBGT community. I’ll continue—
Mercedes Stephenson: So, no.
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: I won’t march in parades but I will ensure that our party is inclusive and open and that we fight for a quality of rights of all Canadians and that we hold the government to account for not doing more, for example, to help people who are persecuted for their sexual orientation coming to Canada.
Mercedes Stephenson: Was it a mistake not to be more aggressive on climate change?
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: We do have an aggressive plan. There already is a party for those who think that you can solve problems with new taxes. That’s the Liberal Party. We’re not that party.
Mercedes Stephenson: So carbon tax is definitely still out.
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: I’ve never known a new tax to solve a problem.
Mercedes Stephenson: Well there are economists who say it’s very effective, but let’s focus on Alberta and Saskatchewan. “Wexit,” this western Brexit as it were, the growing sentiment that’s out there, and I’m from Alberta and I got a lot of very upset texts on election night from people out there who feel that they’re not included, that they’re not represented, that their voices aren’t at the table. The politics that are very volatile right now, what do you say as a national leader to people in Alberta and Saskatchewan who feel that they don’t have a place in the federation?
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: Well, first of all, my message to people in Alberta and Saskatchewan is, I completely understand what they’re going through. I live in Regina. I’ve got friends and neighbours who have been affected by the downturn. There’s a lot of anxiety and a lot of fear and they are justified in those feelings because they’ve seen entire communities significantly affected by not just a downturn, and this is something I take issue with, with Mr. Trudeau on. You know he’s trying to paint this as some kind of global phenomenon, that there’s somehow a global issue that’s affecting Alberta. We’ve seen increases in investments in the oil and gas sector in other countries that do not kill pipeline projects, which do not impose legislation designed to entirely suffocate and kill off an entire sector of our economy. This is not something that other countries are going through all of us together. This is something that’s happening in Canada in our energy sector because of deliberate decisions that this Liberal government have taken, and we’re going to fight for them. We’re going to fight against those decisions. We’re going to do everything we can to force the Liberals to change course on that.
Mercedes Stephenson: Do you agree with Premier Moe’s assertion that it’s time to take a look at equalization that it’s time for a new deal because the current formula isn’t working
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: I’ve always believed that western premiers were right to have frustrations about the equalization formula. During the campaign, I noted that the Liberals had locked in the formula for five years and they did that without consultation. I’ve said that some of the things we can address in the early days are the lag between real-time economic data and what equalization payments actually turn out to be. I believe we can shorten that so that the economic downturns can be factored into those calculations much more quickly. That would be more responsive to the needs of provinces like Alberta and Saskatchewan.
Mercedes Stephenson: Mr. Scheer, I know it’s not an easy thing to sit down and do an interview like this after you’ve lost, so thank you for taking the time to share with us and to share with Canadians.
Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer: Thank you very much.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up next, navigating a minority mandate: How the Liberals plan to govern a divided country.
Mercedes Stephenson: Welcome back. Working together, that’s what Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says Canadians expect of their MPs. But without a single MP from Alberta or Saskatchewan and facing a re-invigorated Bloc Quebecois, plus a minority mandate, finding harmony in the House will be easier said than done for the Liberals.
Joining me now to talk about this is Carla Qualtrough, the current Liberal Minister of Public Services and Procurement. I guess we’ll find out, Minister, if you remain in that role. Thank you for joining us today. Congratulations on your win.
Minister Carla Qualtrough: Thank you very much, and thanks for having me.
Mercedes Stephenson: Obviously, the House has to find a new tone going forward. Harmony has not always been Justin Trudeau’s strength with the Opposition. Do you think that the Liberals could adopt a new tone?
Minister Carla Qualtrough: Well first of all, I absolutely do think that we are doubling down on our commitment to do right by Canadians after this Monday’s election. You know, when we say we want to make life better for everyone, when we say we want to make sure everyone has an equal chance to succeed, that includes every single Canadian in every single province and territory in this country.
Mercedes Stephenson: Do you have a sense, minister, of when the House might return?
Minister Carla Qualtrough: I actually don’t have a sense, but I have heard from the prime minister and as you all have, that he’s taking the time to reflect on the message sent by Canadians on Monday to make sure that we have a cabinet and a government that is reflective of everyone in this country.
Mercedes Stephenson: And speaking of being reflective, one of the challenges is dealing with the situation you have with Alberta and Saskatchewan. Not a single Member of Parliament elected there. How will those Prairie Provinces have their voice hear in cabinet?
Minister Carla Qualtrough: You know, I think we’re well aware of the challenge that this faces, even if it’s just the perception that they don’t have a voice. I mean, from my perspective, as a western MP and as a western cabinet minister, I’ve always considered myself responsible to make sure that not only my city and my region is reflected, but the entire western Canadian demographic is reflected in my perspectives.
Mercedes Stephenson: But that’s two entire provinces that don’t have representation in the cabinet, who would want to have somebody actually from their province providing their voice. What are the options that your government’s looking at in terms of finding a way to give those provinces a voice?
Minister Carla Qualtrough: Well, you know, I think that question is obviously best put to the prime minister directly, but I can tell you that nothing is off the table in terms of his reflections and what creative solutions might be available to us as a government to make sure that the voices of Alberta and Saskatchewan are directly reflected in cabinet. But certainly, that’s his prerogative, and I’ll support any direction he goes in. But for me, I just want everyone to know that we know this as western Canadian MPs and cabinet ministers, we definitely need to make sure we’re the voice of western Canada.
Mercedes Stephenson: Wexit is one of the issues that was trending not only in Twitter but across Alberta in real life this week, people talking about whether or not separation is an option. Do you think that that movement and that frustration is real?
Minister Carla Qualtrough: I think the frustration is real. I’m not sure the movement itself will take any kind of real hold. But I think the message underlying it is that clearly Albertans and people from Saskatchewan didn’t see themselves in our vision for Canada moving forward. And now it’s up to us as a government to make sure that we include everyone but that people feel included as well. Certainly from British Columbia here, we don’t have the exact same perspective as Alberta and Saskatchewan on not feeling hurt or included, but we definitely need to make sure that everybody’s included.
Mercedes Stephenson: One of the suggestions that’s been put out there was from Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe. He says it’s time for a new deal for the federation. It’s time to take another look at equalization because it’s unfair to provinces like Alberta. Is the possibility of changing the equalization formula something your government would consider?
Minister Carla Qualtrough: Well as I said, you know, my understanding is nothing is off the table, Mercedes. So the prime minister and the finance minister, moving forward, will have to have those conversations with provinces. We want to make sure that everybody is treated equally and fairly and if people aren’t feeling that they’re being treated that way, then of course we have to have these really important conversations.
Mercedes Stephenson: Let’s talk about how you get through this Parliament. Obviously, in a minority situation, you have to rely on other parties to support you on particular votes. The NDP and the Bloc, two of those key parties that will be involved, likely, and in particular in the NDP’s case, they’re looking at some pretty big spending items and environment items that they want to see your government act on. Are you confident you’ll be able to keep your promise to Canadians about how deeply into deficit this government will go when you may have to consider things like pharmacare now that are very expensive?
Minister Carla Qualtrough: Yeah. I mean, definitely the plan as we laid it out is our preferred way forward for Canada, but of course, we have to partner with the other parties on big issues. Now, the reality is that two thirds of the country wanted a progressive government, wanted a party to move forward on the social—very important social issues and there’s a lot of common ground in our platforms with the NDP, with the Greens and with the Bloc so I think we will be able to do it, Mercedes, but it will all be about relationships and trust and compromise.
Mercedes Stephenson: What do you think the financial wiggle room is there in terms of how much more debt your government will be considering taking on in order to stay in power and to put through some of these social programs that the NDP or others might like to see?
Minister Carla Qualtrough: Yeah, I don’t know the answer. I apologize. I think that, you know, I’m not in the best position to give those numbers. It’s really early days. People are still working through all the different options at our disposal. People are still figuring out the math of all of this, so I think it’s too early to speculate but I do absolutely hear what you’re saying.
Mercedes Stephenson: One quick last question Minister Qualtrough, do you know if you’ll be staying in your role?
Minister Carla Qualtrough: In my role or in cabinet? I don’t—I obviously would—
Mercedes Stephenson: Both.
Minister Carla Qualtrough: Obviously we all serve at the pleasure, and certainly I hope to still remain at the cabinet table, and I have no idea what the future holds for me in terms of a portfolio. I’ll do whatever the prime minister asks of me and I’ll do it to the very best of my possibility.
Mercedes Stephenson: Well thank you so much for joining us today.
Minister Carla Qualtrough: Thank you.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up next, we’ll unpack the politics of a minority government in Ottawa.
Mercedes Stephenson: Welcome back. Surviving the coming months will take skill and strategy and negotiation for both the Liberal government and the Opposition. How can they pull it off? Joining me now to dissect all this is Susan Delacourt, who is the Ottawa bureau chief for the Toronto Star and Joel-Denis Bellavance, who is the Ottawa Bureau Chief for La Presse.
Susan, obviously some tough times ahead for Andrew Scheer, in particular, his leadership facing a lot of questions inside the Conservative Party. Do you think that he can survive?
Susan Delacourt: Big question. I noted with interest how Stephen Harper was trying to calm people down this week. That was the word, which tells you that things are not calm if the eminence grise of the party has to come out and say settle it down. I don’t know. I think there’s—we were hearing a lot of discontent about Andrew Scheer before the election that a lot of—Conservatives grumble a lot as we know, all parties do, but we were hearing a lot of discontent about the failure to catch on in Ontario and Quebec. And I think with the election results that starkly divided between strength out west, no strength, not enough strength in Ontario and Quebec. I think people are—I would imagine a lot of phone calls are taking place.
Mercedes Stephenson: We know, certainly I’ve heard from Tory sources, lots of phone calls taking place, including in some cases, J-D, phone calls to people who might be the next leader, not just Peter MacKay, but some people who are currently sitting inside caucus. Is this the typical grumbling we need a messianic leader? They could turn everything around that we hear whenever a party loses, or do you think that some of these leadership bids might actually be real and starting to organize?
Joel-Denis Bellavance: I think it’s real because a lot of people are asking the following questions: is the image that Mr. Scheer built during this campaign done? Is it repairable? Can you repair/fix his image among Quebec voters and Ontario voters? And a lot of people are coming to the following conclusion: the answer is no. So that means that if you can’t rebuild this image, make it more sellable to those voters in Ontario and Quebec. You may have to change the messenger, and I think a lot of people are asking those questions. And the answer will come in April when the Tories hold their next convention where the leadership will be put to the members of the party.
Mercedes Stephenson: Susan.
Susan Delacourt: Yeah, and clearly Andrew Scheer thinks Andrew Scheer can survive. I was very intrigued by all the tones of the speeches on election night, but his reference to 2004, and 2004 for people who have forgotten, Stephen Harper had just become leader. It was his first try and he managed to use that as stage one and 2005-06 election as the—so I think Andrew Scheer is comforting himself with that idea that this is really a two election process and that he’s going to get even more than he had before. The problem is, is that some people would say that that sort of follows the path of the five stages of grief more than, you know, denial, bargaining, depression, finally acceptance. So I think—I’d love to be a fly on the wall of Conservative caucus when it first meets because we are hearing it outside. I’m sure there’s stuff going on inside.
Mercedes Stephenson: Wouldn’t we. Well one of the ones that certainly we in the Anglo media don’t have much of a fly on the wall status, finger on our pulse as the Bloc Quebecois, but JD, you do. This totally changes the face of Parliament. There’s a lot of Canadians who are having to re-remember the time when the Bloc was the Official Opposition, when the Bloc had serious sway. We’re now back to that. What are their priorities as they come into Parliament with what they’re going to push to have done?
Joel-Denis Bellavance: Well, the dynamics will change in the House of Commons in Question Period because you’ll have more questions asked about Ottawa-Quebec relations asked by the Bloc Quebecois. So the dynamics will be different and that means that the Liberal Party, the Liberal government will have to adjust to that. So that’s one critical thing. The Bloc Quebecois did not campaign on making Quebec an independent country. So that means that he does not have a mandate and they admit that. That this is going to be the next step. And the next step will be to help the Parti Quebecois that is in the National Assembly, regain some momentum. Right now it is sitting in third place, if not fourth place in Quebec, so it’s not a major figure in politics in Quebec. But the Bloc Quebecois’ main mandate is to advance Quebec’s interests. And interestingly enough, the Quebec premier, you know, who saw the gains of the Bloc Quebecois is trying to put a brake on it right now. The Bloc Quebec Leader Yves-François Blanchet wanted to meet the premier of Quebec City—Quebec this week. The premier refused. His priority is to meet Justin Trudeau first. So already the Bloc Quebecois is, you know, being put back in its place. You’re not going to speak for the whole of Quebec. I’m the premier of Quebec, so that’s, I think, reassuring. And I don’t think that the Bloc Quebecois will manage to rekindle if I may say, the Quebec—the Ottawa separatist movement debate. This is, I think, done for most people. It’s there to represent the new kind of nationalism that François Legault is embodying right now.
Susan Delacourt: Maybe they can give the west some advice.
Mercedes Stephenson: That’s what I wanted to ask you about, Susan, because you do have the situation, which we’ve been talking about on the show that Alberta and Saskatchewan do not have a single elected Liberal MP. How does this government convince them their voice is being heard when there’s no one in cabinet logically at this point? How do you deal with that?
Susan Delacourt: Well first of all, I think we should remember it may change a bit how Trudeau’s government worked. It was a bit cabinet government, but it was very PMO government.
Mercedes Stephenson: That’s true.
Susan Delacourt: So I think what you’re going to see is them bringing in some strong voices from the west into the Prime Minister’s Office. I think, I don’t know how that’s—I’m not speaking from any inside knowledge here—I just think that there will be calls to increase the visibility and the heft of Alberta and Saskatchewan advisors inside the Prime Minister’s Office. That will help. It doesn’t solve the cabinet problem, but the staffing of the Prime Minister’s Office is going to be key, and I think that’s why they’ve taken four weeks off as opposed to two. That it was two weeks last time between election and swearing in. It’s four now and I think that’s because we’re going to see some big changes.
Mercedes Stephenson: We just have a few seconds left, but before we go, do you think Justin Trudeau can play well with others in a minority Parliament because it’s not been his strong point in the past?
Joel-Denis Bellavance: He’ll have to otherwise this government will not survive very long. I mean, the dynamics of the campaign cannot continue in Parliament otherwise this place will explode.
Susan Delacourt: Yeah, he’s—there’s a lot of things. He is a learner. He is just going to be learning it on-the-job, really quickly.
Mercedes Stephenson: Really quickly. And with that, we’re out of time, also really quickly. Thank you very much to our journo’s for joining us.
Joel-Denis Bellavance: Thank you.
Mercedes Stephenson: That’s all the time we have for today. For our full interview with the Official Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer, please go to our website: www.thewestblock.ca.
And before we go today, we’d like to reach out and wish cabinet Minister Jim Carr and his family all the best as he battles cancer after his diagnosis last week.
For The West Block, I’m Mercedes Stephenson.
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