Transcript Season 5 Episode 22

THE WEST BLOCK

Episode 22, Season 5

Sunday, February 21, 2016

Host: Tom Clark

Guests: Ian Black, Selçuk Ünal, Lawrence Martin, Don Newman, Geoff Norquay

Location: Ottawa

Tom Clark: On this Sunday, in cities across Canada, taxi drivers are taking their fight with Uber to the streets and to the politicians. So far, nobody has blinked. We’ll talk with Uber Canada.

Then, the government’s new plan to fight ISIS includes arming Kurds in Northern Iraq. What does our ally, Turkey, think about this? We’ll put that to Turkey’s ambassador to Canada.

And then, we head to a bar as synonymous with politics as Parliament Hill. We swap stories of the legendary Hy’s before it closes its doors, for good.

It is Sunday, February the 21st, and from the nation’s capital, I’m Tom Clark. And you are in The West Block.

Tom Clark: Well across the country and around the world, anti-Uber protests are getting bigger and more violent. Last week in Montreal, taxi drivers brought traffic to a standstill at the airport and pelted an Uber car with eggs, all in an effort to bring down the ride-sharing business which they say is hurting the taxi business.

Joining me now from Calgary is the general manager of Uber Canada, Ian Black. Mr. Black, thanks very much for being here. First of all, I just want to get your reaction because we’ve seen in a number of cities across Canada, your drivers being physically attacked. What’s your reaction to that?

Ian Black: Yes, well Tom, thank you for having me on the show today, big fan. And we’re very disappointed to see some targeted attacks on Uber drivers by taxi drivers. Certainly, we’ve reached out to police, in Montreal specifically, and asked them to take action, to make clear that that’s unacceptable behaviour and we stand behind our drivers through what can be a challenging time for them. But very clearly, this shows to us it’s time for governments to act. There’s an industry here that over a million Canadians use on a monthly basis to get around. It’s lowering the cost of transportation. It’s increasing driver earnings, and there’s an opportunity to create regulation, so they’re certainly in the market, and so some of this commotion and even some of these attacks, we can put behind us.

Tom Clark: Well, you’re in Calgary right now because you’re negotiating with that city. Just north of where you are, is Edmonton and they’re about to introduce regulations for the Uber/taxi business. And three major points of that, there has to be a minimum fare, I think it’s $3.25; 6 cents per ride goes to the city and all drivers are going to need provincially approved insurance and annual vehicle inspections. Is this the model for the rest of the country, do you think?

Ian Black: Well, Mayor Iveson and the City of Edmonton have shown real leadership. Over 70 jurisdictions around the world have already regulated ride sharing, but Edmonton has been the first to do it in Canada. So, the model put forward by Edmonton is a very good one. It’s a very workable one. I should say it also includes background checks for all drivers, so public safety is really taken care of. And it is a contrast here to Calgary where the mayor and the regulator are putting forward a ride-sharing bill that they know doesn’t work for the industry. And Calgary’s in tough economic times right now. Ride sharing could create 2,000 jobs in the first month in Calgary, so we hope that city council actually votes to delay these regulations so there’s more time to work with regulators and create a solution that works, just the way that Edmonton has found a way to do.

Tom Clark: And let’s make it very clear, I mean the popularity has not suffered because of the problems with regulations. I believe in Vancouver when it was hinted that it might be coming to Vancouver, what was it 100,000 people signed up almost right away?

Ian Black: No, you’re exactly right. There’s over 100,000 people in British Columbia who have opened the app and Uber doesn’t even operate there. So in polling across the country, you see eight out of 10 or nine out of 10 people supports the idea that ride sharing should be allowed in cities, and it’s simple. It’s lower cost, it’s more reliable and it creates options. And if you go to any city in Canada, it’s hard to get around. It can be expensive to get around. We have congestion problems. Riding sharing really is a solution that helps address all these problems. And you look to the future of it. It’s creating solutions to congestion and pollution with our new Uber Pool product, which we just launched in Toronto in the last month and over 100,000 people in the city have started carpooling in the last month. So the benefits to cities really are enormous.

Tom Clark: But there is obviously the other side of it too, in that the heritage industries like the taxi service, for instance, are saying you’re taking jobs and money away from families who were involved in that business.

Ian Black: Yes, and we certainly have sympathy for taxi drivers who work extremely hard and often for not much money. But we can’t confuse that with the issue that the taxi industry is a monopoly. And monopoly drives up prices for consumers, it drives down earnings for drivers, and it creates profits for the brokerages and the license holders. So, what ride sharing is doing is introducing competition, and that can be disruptive, but ultimately it’s good for people in cities. It’s good for the cities themselves and we’re seeing cities like Edmonton now recognize that and create regulations to support it.

Tom Clark: Mr. Black, just in the short time that we’ve got remaining here, I want to sort of go up to 30,000 feet on this because really what we’re talking about with Uber is not just an alternative taxi service, although that’s one that you do. You want to sort of recreate almost a whole brand new economy, a whole new way of doing business. Is this not always going to put you in some sort of conflict like you see with the taxi business, with further ventures that you’re going to do? In other words, what is the responsibility here of government as well as yourself, that if you’re going to invent a new economy, go into areas we’ve never been in before, isn’t this inevitably going to cause conflicts like this everywhere?

Ian Black: Well, it’s a great point. Many people call it the sharing economy or the digital economy. It is creating all sorts of new industries. And these industries are opening up overnight. They’re moving much faster than regulation has traditionally moved. So I think the province of Ontario has shown a good model. They’ve created a commission to look at the sharing economy and say not only can we update regulations, but going forward, how can we change regulations faster? How can we create regulatory frameworks that are adaptive so that new companies — a Canadian in their garage can create a company and they can thrive and succeed with innovation rather than being shut down? And we’re starting to see some governments respond better than others, but we’re hopeful and we’re optimistic that governments are seeing this as a challenge they want to face. And the B.C. government and Christy Clark are trying to do that in B.C., so hopefully we’ll see progress in that regard over the months to come.

Tom Clark: Ian Black, I’d love to carry on this conversation another day, but thank you very much for being here.

Ian Black: Thank you very much, Tom.

Tom Clark: Coming up next: Turkey, at the forefront of the battle against ISIS. What do they need from their allies, especially from Canada? And then, we’ll take a walk down to Hy’s and pay tribute to a place where politicians, lobbyists and journalists shared stories and a few other things.

Tom Clark: Welcome back. The government’s new plan to fight ISIS is going to be put to a vote in the House next week, and that plan includes more trainers on the ground and military arms and ammunition to Kurdish fighters in Northern Iraq. Meanwhile, talks continue to find a diplomatic solution to the crisis in Syria, while tens of thousands of civilians are caught in the crossfire along the Syrian-Turkish border.

And joining me now, is the Turkish ambassador to Canada, Selçuk Ünal. Ambassador, thanks very much for being here. You’ve seen Canada’s new plan to battle the Islamic State, what do you think of it?

Selçuk Ünal: Well first of all, Canada is remaining in the coalition as it has been announced. We are part of this coalition and Daesh or ISIL is a national security threat to both countries, and we will continue to fight and struggle against this menace, I think all together.

Tom Clark: Would it have been more in the interest of the coalition, do you think, if Canada had continued to participate in the aerial bombing of Daesh?

Selçuk Ünal: Well, every country is entitled to its own decision. So if there is a contribution, every country is making it, which we are. So I believe every country has a part that they can play. We, for example, for Turkey, we have been taking part actively in the air operations, but we also provide intelligence, humanitarian assistance stuff. So that’s the idea of the coalitions.

Tom Clark: Let me ask you about one part of the Canadian plan and that is that we’re not just assisting the Peshmerga; we’re now sending them arms and ammunition. Does this concern you at all because of course the background is that the Kurds that we are supporting are fighting not for Iraq; they’re fighting for a greater Kurdistan, the creation of a Kurdish State, which of course is an idea that has plagued your country. Does it bother you that we’re sending arms to these guys?

Selçuk Ünal: Let me say a distinction. I mean, first of all, we are also helping the Iraqi Kurdish groups against Daesh or for their welfare. We have cultivated excellent relations with them. What we are against is terror organizations like the PKK in Turkey or PYD in Syria. Now, our general expectation from everybody, from our allies and partners, (is) to ensure that whatever’s given to any group on the ground should not be transferred to any terror organizations, first and foremost, PKK and PYD because they could be used back in our territory. So that’s our general stance.

Tom Clark: But, in the fog of war, it’s almost impossible to guarantee that those weapons might not find their way into the hands of the Kurdish terrorists.

Selçuk Ünal: Well, that’s a general concern that we have … and I think every country is entitled to take the necessary precautions to prevent such an eventuality.

Tom Clark: Ambassador, let’s take a look at the larger picture because it is a real crisis for your country right now with the number of refugees that are within your borders, over a million at this point. The solution, I mean there’s been peace talks, talk of ceasefire, but it doesn’t include the Russians and so it’s hard to see how a ceasefire can happen without Russian involvement with it. Everybody said that boots on the ground is the only solution, so would Turkey involve itself in a ground invasion of Syria?

Selçuk Ünal: Not unilaterally, no. We believe first of all, peace is the first way. That’s why we have supported Vienna talks, participated in that, supported Geneva talks, support the ceasefire, but without Russian or other countries regimes, bombardments against the Serbians, against moderate opposition this would not be possible, we believe. So if there will be a ground force by the coalition members not unilaterally to fight against terrorism, we just said that we could consider joining that, but nothing unilateral.

Tom Clark: When you talk about a coalition going in, boots on the ground, should that happen, who do you think should be part of that coalition? Should countries like Canada be part of that coalition?

Selçuk Ünal: Well, again, it’s up to the coalition members. Every coalition member has, and will have, any part to play, but what we believe is also maybe without boots on the ground, we need to have a safe zone which is protected from the air as we have done in the past in Iraq, in Northern Iraq, in Kosovo, in Libya.

Tom Clark: But let me ask you about that. Just let me stop you there for a minute.

Selçuk Ünal: Sure.

Tom Clark: Because this talk about a no-fly zone has been going around, but doesn’t that open the door to an even greater disaster because it would be basically NATO jets, your jets, American jets, potentially shooting down Russian jets if they don’t respect a no-fly zone.

Selçuk Ünal: Not necessarily, these issues could have been and will be handled by of course dialogue, for example, there are other countries from the coalition who is flying over Syria and they’re coordinating their activities with Russia. What we mean by a safe zone is exactly to give a space to the civilians to take cover and that international community could extend the international humanitarian assistance to them in Syria by stopping of course refugee exodus. That’s the main aim.

Tom Clark: Let me finally just ask you a general question. Are you more or less optimistic today than you were six months ago about finding a solution to this crisis in Syria?

Selçuk Ünal: Well, after the cease fire we were optimistic, but the cease fire should be sustainable and with the bombardments of different actors, not members of the coalition who are fighting against the civilians or the moderate opposition that we all want to support, it’s going to be pessimistic. Of course, terror organizations in Syria should be stopped in there, that’s why prior to that we would give importance.

Tom Clark: Ambassador Ünal, thank you very much for your time today, great talking to you.

Selçuk Ünal: Thank you.

Tom Clark: Well coming up next we talk politics, one last time, at Ottawa’s legendary watering hole, Hy’s, before it closes its doors at the end of this week.

Tom Clark: Welcome back. Well, as you can see, we’re not at the studio anymore. We’ve walked down the street to the legendary bar at Hy’s. Now, just a little background here, this isn’t actually live. We’ve pre-taped this in advance, which may explain why there’s a few libations on the table. Anyway, Hy’s has been the place for more than three decades where journalists, politicians, bureaucrats have gathered, usually late at night, usually over a glass of something or other to exchange stories, sometimes to exchange information. A lot has happened in this place in more than 30 years and we’re here because at the end of this week, Hy’s will shut its doors forever and an era will come to an end in terms of Ottawa politics.

Well joining me now, are three legendary people in their own rights: Lawrence Martin, columnist for the Globe and Mail; Don Newman, journalist extraordinaire—what would you say, an icon of Ottawa, everybody knows Don Newman; and Geoff Norquay who has been involved with Conservative politics going back into the early 80s, even before Hy’s was open. Welcome to you all.

Let me just start with, we’ve all had experiences here, could you tell me your best moment in Hy’s?

Tom Clark: Don, during that whole time, there was nobody in this town for 30 years who collected more political information than you did, all those years on your show on the CBC. You came here every now and again. How much of this became the grease of everything that happened in Ottawa?

Don Newman: Well, it certainly there was an era during the Mulroney and Chrétien years where it really was the place and it didn’t matter who you were with, you would usually see someone else that you wanted to talk to, and you would have to figure out ‘how can I do this and how can I be subtle about moving around?’ And you talk about Paul Martin; I was having dinner with Paul Martin once. I think the Mulroney government was still in power and I was talking to Paul Martin, and my phone rang and I realized it was somebody that I didn’t want Martin to know I was going to talk to and I didn’t want them to know that I was talking to Paul Martin.

Don Newman: You can’t give away all the…

Tom Clark: Geoff, I can’t think of another bar in any capital city that I’ve been in that has had more prohibitions against it by certain political parties. I mean, literally, there have been parties that have come into this town and said to guys like you, I don’t care what you do, but don’t go to Hy’s.

Tom Clark: This was sort of neutral territory here, wasn’t it?

Geoff Norquay: Exactly. People see us going on panels on TV and we bash the heck out of each other and then we kind of punch the clock and say well let’s go to Hy’s and have a glass of wine.

Tom Clark: You know that brings up a really interesting point. I just want to kick this around among the four of us for a minute. But this restaurant and what happened here and the sense that it was neutral ground, everybody could come in, was that more indicative of an era? I mean we’re talking about the 80s when Brian Mulroney first came in, all the way up to, and including the Harper years, although it got a little dry during the Harper years. But could Hy’s be recreated today, or is this truly a thing of the past? What do you guys think?

Don Newman: I think it could be recreated, maybe not exactly the same way. But I think you need in a functioning democracy, the kind of place where people kind of check their politics at the door, socialize with each other, respect each other; find out actually what a person is like rather than looking at them across the aisle in the House. And I think the other good thing, this is a bar, but there’s a nice restaurant on the other side of the hallway and a lot of people gravitate onto dinner afterwards. And if you, particularly on a Wednesday night when all the MPs are in town because it’s been caucus day, you go in there and people are table hopping and saying hello. It’s not just me looking to put somebody off for a minute at a table. And I think that’s important.

Lawrence Martin: Yeah, but you know the culture has changed since years earlier. I mean the rise of the coffee houses. You know I used to call members or somebody to go out for an interview and we’d say oh sure, let’s go have a beer. That was years ago. Now, it’s let’s have a coffee or worse, a tea.

Tom Clark: Herbal tea, I think, yeah.

Geoff Norquay: But you know when I first came here, in 1985, I walked in the door and there was Norman Spectre who was the chief of staff to Brian Mulroney. Just last week or maybe it was two weeks ago, I walked into this bar and there was Prime Minister Trudeau’s principal secretary, so I mean it was still playing the same rule in a sense. You know, Gerry Butts was new, so.

Lawrence Martin: Yeah, I think what’s important about a place like this in the past, I don’t know where this will go in the future, is that as Don says, you kind of checked your guns at the door. You would see people from all stripes, across all parties, and they were accessible because it was kind of a public place and people had a glass of wine at hand. You know what I remember—will always remember about this place is budget nights. I remember Jim Flaherty right over there.

Don Newman: Well they moved all the tables out budget night. And the other thing is—

Lawrence Martin: Exactly, walking around and working the room and being totally accessible. And that’s nice.

Geoff Norquay: And the other thing is, after the odd libation, as you know, loose lips, give tips. You got a lot of stories here that you don’t get in the coffee houses, right?

Tom Clark: So only part of what happens in Hy’s stays in Hy’s. The rest of it shows up in the columns.

Tom Clark: Geoff Norquay, Don Newman, and Lawrence Martin, great to have a last drink with you at Hy’s.

Tom Clark: And that is our show for this week from the legendary bar at Hy’s. We’ll see you in seven days’ time, from our studio, for another edition of The West Block. Have a great week.

-30-