THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 4, Season 13
Sunday, October 8, 2023
Host: Mercedes Stephenson
Guests:
Chuck Freilich, Former Deputy National Security Advisor for Israel
François-Philippe Champagne, Innovation, Science and Industry Minister
Location:
Ottawa, ON
Mercedes Stephenson: A weekend of terror and unprecedented bloodshed in the Middle East, where Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has declared the country is at war.
I’m Mercedes Stephenson. Welcome to The West Block.
An unprecedented surprise attack by Hamas militants in Southern Israel has left hundreds dead. Israel immediately launched airstrikes into Gaza and has vowed to wipe out the militant group. With fears the conflict could spread, we speak to a former deputy national security advisor for Israel.
And this Thanksgiving, many Canadians are feeling the pinch when it comes to the high cost of food. The federal Liberals say they have a plan to bring some relief to your grocery bill. We dig into the politics of groceries with the industry minister.
Early Saturday morning, Hamas militants launched a massive, unprecedented and coordinated infiltration operation on land, sea and from the air. Families were killed, revellers at a music festival were shot, and civilians were terrorized in the streets. Israel retaliated, launching airstrikes into the Gaza Strip, levelling high rises. Hundreds have been killed. The Israeli government says a substantial number of Israeli citizens and soldiers have been kidnapped by Hamas and taken to Gaza.
Joining me now to discuss this evolving and very volatile situation is Chuck Freilich, a former deputy national security advisor in Israel. He’s now a professor at Columbia University and Tel Aviv University.
Thank you so much for joining us, Chuck. I know this is a difficult day for your country and to be talking about what is happening there. Can we start with speaking to the significance of this attack on Israel and what it means for the country as well as what’s unfolding right now?
Chuck Freilich, Former Deputy National Security Advisor for Israel: Well this is one of the worst developments in Israel’s history. It’s the first time since the War of Independence in 1948 that Israeli territory was occupied, even briefly, and there are still a couple of points of resistance that are ongoing. This is an earthquake for Israeli: militarily, psychologically, the sense of people’s security, and it’s, I believe, a total different change in the situation which is going to require responses by Israel on a completely different level. We cannot accept this.
Mercedes Stephenson: Do you believe that given the change you’re speaking to, and you’re seeing the White House call this terrorism is never justified, the international community, in many cases, speaking out in favour of Israel saying the country has a right to defend itself? Do you believe this change, and how horrific elements of this attack were and were broadcasted—you can see videos of women being kidnapped, videos of people running and being shot as they flea. It’s a very graphic visual representation of the terror that unfolded. Does this change the calculus for the Israeli military in terms of their ability or decision to go in and retake Gaza and try to crush Hamas?
Chuck Freilich, Former Deputy National Security Advisor for Israel: Well I think, of course, the pictures are horrific and Hamas is playing it up for propaganda purposes, that would be to be expected. I think our territory was invaded. This is no longer—this isn’t an issue of the west bank of the settlement. This is Israeli’s fundamental security, and to allow this to just go by with, let’s say, more of the same or a slightly more of the same kind of response, to go and just hit Hamas hard, I don’t believe that that begins to rise to the occasion. I believe that we will have to launch a—by the way, militarily or strategically and politically, the government has no other choice but to go in with a very major operation, potentially to actually conquer all of Gaza, spend a while—this is a few months in any event—trying to root out all of the rockets, and there are tens of thousands of them so it’s not an easy objective and it’s actually a very bloody one because it’ll be house to house fighting. And I think we have to end this with someone else in power in Gaza, and the only potentially somewhat responsible someone else is the Palestinian Authority, which was overthrown by Hamas in 2007. We have to find a way for the endgame in this war to be a restoration of the control of the PA, the Palestinian Authority.
Mercedes Stephenson: Both Hamas and the Israeli government have said that there are at least dozens of Israeli citizens and soldiers who have been taken hostage. Hamas is warning the Israeli government that they have spread them throughout Gaza. They’re in individual homes and locations, trying to use them essentially as human shields, I would imagine, against the operation. How does the Israeli government think about what to do in this situation? There’s obviously the option of potentially a prisoner exchange. There is the question of how you carry out a military operation when citizens of your own country are potentially going to die in that operation. What is the calculus here for Benjamin Netanyahu and the Israeli government on how to handle the hostages?
Chuck Freilich, Former Deputy National Security Advisor for Israel: Well Netanyahu famously made a deal for the exchange of approximately 1,100 Hamas terrorists who were in Israeli prisons in exchange for one Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit about a decade ago, and that was a truly egregious error. You cannot—I’m not against any negotiations and any deals with terrorists. Sometimes you have to cut your losses and do that, but that set a very dangerous precedent. We can’t possibly come up with the kind of numbers they might want for the magnitude of hostages today. And in any event, I don’t think we’re in a negotiating place at this point. The military operation has to take place and of course, things will be done to try and minimize the impact on the hostages, but it has to take place regardless of that consideration. I understand how horrific what I’m saying is, and if I had a loved one there, I might be taking a different position. But the state of Israel cannot allow what has happened to stand, and we cannot give in to this kind of extortion. This is in essence a battle for pretty much for national survival.
Mercedes Stephenson: There is also concern for Palestinian civilians who knew nothing of this attack being planned by Hamas who could be caught in the crossfire and killed. I know the Israeli government has warned them to leave, but is that a simple thing for them to do or are there a number of people who are potentially trapped here and are going to be victims of the fighting?
Chuck Freilich, Former Deputy National Security Advisor for Israel: Well yes. Tragically, civilians always pay the price of military conflicts. But in the end, it’s Hamas is the government there. They have been since 2007, and they bear responsibility for what they did. Israel goes to extraordinary lengths to prevent civilian deaths. I know some people have a contrary picture, but they’re really not familiar with what Israel does and I imagine will continue to do this time. Less so, because the Israeli response is going to be massive. But Israel is always careful to try and minimize the civilians. We have to bring in a new, more moderate and more responsible government to Hamas—to Gaza. Hamas is a terrorist organization which is in charge of a mini state. It has to change.
Mercedes Stephenson: Why do you believe that this happened now? People didn’t see it coming, that it’s being described as a massive intelligence failure. So what do you believe was the trigger point or the decision-making process for Hamas to attack?
Chuck Freilich, Former Deputy National Security Advisor for Israel: When major events happen, we always go and look for explanations post facto. Part of it was simply an intelligence failure, and the best intelligence agencies blow it sometimes and this happened here. But I think it reflects, as you say why is the timing? It was the symbolism of the specific day, 50 years and one day after the Yum Kippur War but this was something that was clearly planned many months in advance. This was very, very well thought out on their part, and they were at least partly taking advantage of the domestic turmoil in Israel, which has been the so-called judicial reform—I call it a judicial wrecking ball—which tore Israeli society apart, which clearly weakened the IDF and we’re seeing it now, and they believed that this was a unique timing from their perspective that there would never be a better time to attack Israel. They were proved right.
Mercedes Stephenson: Do you believe that this whole spread into a broader conflict involving the west bank or other regional allies for Hamas?
Chuck Freilich, Former Deputy National Security Advisor for Israel: Well yes, there’s a clear danger of an escalation in the west Bank and East Jerusalem, but the real danger is whether there’s an escalation with Hezbollah in Lebanon and potentially with Iran. They’ve got their own forces in Syria and there can be a direct conflict with Iran. There is certainly a danger of a regional escalation from a multi-front war perspective. Then of course, that would be a very dangerous development from our point of view. It’s hard to fight multi-front wars, but I believe we are in a war situation and considerations, yeah of course we try to minimize the chances of escalation, but all bets are off now. This is a completely different situation. The state of Israel is at war and we will have to pay whatever horrific price as required.
Mercedes Stephenson: Thank you so much for joining us today.
Chuck Freilich, Former Deputy National Security Advisor for Israel: Thank you.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up next, Industry Minister François-Philippe Champagne on his plan to make grocery stores compete harder for your hard earned money.
Mercedes Stephenson: The cost of, well everything, is expensive for a lot of Canadians right now and that’s certainly reflected on peoples’ grocery bills. The federal government has promised action to help lower food costs. The major grocery store chains had until Thanksgiving, so this weekend, to come up with a plan. Ottawa says that’s only one piece of its strategy to try to help Canadians who are struggling to pay their bills, but the opposition isn’t buying it.
Pierre Poilievre, Official Opposition Leader: “And all they offered since they promised to bring prices down by Thanksgiving is a code of conduct, an office, and a photo op. You can’t eat any of those three things.”
Jagmeet Singh, NDP Leader: “Your plan to ask CEOs nicely to reduce prices is ridiculous!”
Mercedes Stephenson: For more on what the government can and can’t do to lower your grocery costs at the till, I’m joined by Innovation, Science and Industry Minister François-Philippe Champagne. Welcome, minister. Great to see you.
François-Philippe Champagne, Innovation, Science and Industry Minister: Great to be with you on this beautiful Sunday.
Mercedes Stephenson: It is a Sunday when so many people are about to sit down and enjoy, perhaps, a lovely turkey, a ham. But for some people, realistically, they haven’t been able to buy that this year, or they’ve had to sacrifice something really significant. Your government has promised to do more about this, but we haven’t seen a lot of detail on how you’re going to cause grocery stores to lower prices and just how directly you really can influence the cost of a can of beans, or, you know, a pack of noodles. So what is it that you’re going to achieve here?
François-Philippe Champagne, Innovation, Science and Industry Minister: Well I’d say, you know, Canadians watching—no, you know, I cannot do miracles, but what they expect from us to fight for them. You know, step one was really to bring the five grocery CEOs in Ottawa, I’m told this is the first time in Canada’s history, and I expressed the frustration of the viewers. You know, I do groceries every Saturday and I said listen, 40 million of us are facing challenges and therefore you need to be part of the solution. So step one was really to get commitments from them to help us stabilize prices in the country. Like you said, we presented a plan with five items, that’s step one. The other one was to create this consumer—the Bureau of Consumers Affairs, basically because what I want to track is these things like shrinkflation, because there are many variables in that. You know, we’ve seen brands shrinking the package, but having the same price in a way and therefore, we want to see that and I want to highlight it so Canadians can make better choices, because at the end of the day, it’s not the government. It’s you and I, and the millions of viewers who are going to say, hey listen, we’re going to put our dollars in this banner or this banner, because we think that they’re offering better value for our money. Then we have the grocery code of conduct, which is going to, you know, bring more transparency, fairness. We said we need to provide more data as well because the U.S. does a bit better than us in providing data. So the small independent grocers will have more data to negotiate with the big guys, and finally, competition reform.
Mercedes Stephenson: We all saw what we call the “perp walk” of the grocery CEOs, marching into the meeting, to talk to you. And you came out and said that you’ve drastically changed the tone. But we don’t have any specifics on what you got these grocery CEOs to agree to, so how do we know if there’s going to be a change? What did you—we get them to say they would do?
François-Philippe Champagne, Innovation, Science and Industry Minister: Well, you know, in a press conference earlier this week, and I said there are different measures. As you appreciate, I’m trying to play the competition, you know, because I know one—if one does that, the other is going to do this. So…
Mercedes Stephenson: But don’t they do that without you?
François-Philippe Champagne, Innovation, Science and Industry Minister: I think that they—we have accelerated and expanded. To be honest, they know that it’s not me. We’re 40 million watching them now, 40 million of us are watching them and saying okay, what are you going to do for us now? And what we gave them was an objective. But the how, you want competition to play.
Mercedes Stephenson: But what is the objective exactly?
François-Philippe Champagne, Innovation, Science and Industry Minister: Well the objective was to help us stabilize prices in Canada.
Mercedes Stephenson: But is there an amount? Is there a benchmark? Timeline?
François-Philippe Champagne, Innovation, Science and Industry Minister: Well we’ve seen that the price of food has increased far more than general inflation in Canada. So we said….
Mercedes Stephenson: By about two per cent.
François-Philippe Champagne, Innovation, Science and Industry Minister: So we said, you need to help us to bring that in line with inflation. So that’s step one. And then, you know, when they came—when we had the discussion and the plan, they say they’re going to do different things, some of which they were probably doing before, but I think they’re accelerating, expanding them. And above all, I would say, Mercedes, what we have is now we have millions of eyes on them to say what are you going to do now? Because the objective is clear. You said—not you, but the grocers—they said you’re going to be part of the solution. The government has put a number of measures in place to support you in that, but now we want to see real action when we go to the stores. And that’s what I’m starting to see, but again, we’re in day four of that mission. No one is expecting that—it’s not like a switch you turn on and off and suddenly everything happens, but what we started in this country, I think, it is putting pressure and certainly creating a more competitive environment and all the viewers with me will decide where we put our dollar and that is the power of us together saying this banner is responding to the call for action. This one is not, therefore we’ll go there.
Mercedes Stephenson: And arguably that is the power of Canadians, though. It’s not the power of the federal government. And a number of food economists have been saying publicly that the measures you’re proposing in terms of grocery prices, there is no clear correlation they’re going to come down. But they’re starting to trend down anyhow, but because we don’t know the plan and specifics, we don’t have any evidence that that’s going to have an effect. But there are some things your government could do that would have potentially a very direct effect and that would include things like taking the GST off of more of items, or alleviating the carbon tax, for example, for farmers who are producing so that they would not be having to pass that tax onto the consumer, or dealing with the eggs, and dairy, and chicken supply management system in Canada, which causes to have higher prices. Is your government looking at any of those direct areas that you control in a way that you do not control the cost of individual groceries?
François-Philippe Champagne, Innovation, Science and Industry Minister: Well no, I have a lot of self-power. Trust me, because I speak on behalf of 40 million people. So when you bring CEOs in a room, it’s not the minister. It’s 40 million of us talking to them, saying hey, we want action. So the focus was on them, but I think if you look at what Canada is doing compares well with what the U.K. has been doing. If you look at White Rose in the United Kingdom, if you look at Carrefour in France—because I’ve been looking—we’re not the only country facing that by the way. So we’ve been looking at international best practices, and now the focus is on them and the focus is also on the large international manufacturer because one of the things I did was also to bring the CEOs of Unilever of Nestle and say you also have to be part of the solution because you know what? We understand it’s a very complex supply chain you have in grocery, but you have to be part of the solution. And I’m going to be talking to colleagues around the world as well, to say how can we push them to be part of that solution? But now the focus is on them. If you ask me are we looking at different things? Definitely because, you know what? I’ve been talking, probably to the same experts than you, talking about shrinkflation and some of the packaging. So everything—you know what? Like I said, we’re in day four. This is not going to be overnight. This is a process and I’ll be on their back for weeks, for months to come.
Mercedes Stephenson: And I appreciate your point about highlighting the issue and putting political pressure on it, but I don’t think it answers the question as to why your government isn’t doing things that you directly could affect, like suspending the carbon tax for farmers, or removing the GST, or saying maybe we should take a second look at supply management with dairy and chickens because of the cost. Why are you not opening any of those doors which you do have control over?
François-Philippe Champagne, Innovation, Science and Industry Minister: Well the challenge has been when we started that process; Canadians have been looking at some of the margins and wondering what’s going on now in the grocery sector and the lack, I would say, of competition? So that’s been the focus of that now. You’re raising supply management. We say we won’t go there. We said as well to them, we don’t want you to reflect that on your workers, on the small and medium sized producers. Now we’re tackling the big guys because they’re the ones who can make the biggest difference. You know, the five…
Mercedes Stephenson: But you are a big guy. You’re the federal government. You control the taxes.
François-Philippe Champagne, Innovation, Science and Industry Minister: Totally. But I’m saying—you know, like I said we’re in day four. So no one is saying that, you know, all the solutions are on the table at day four. We started that process and we presented five things that we think are going to have an impact. I mean the reform on competition, which is a landmark thing. I mean, I spoke to the Independent Grocer Association which represent, what? 6,900. Many of your viewers would shop in these and they said minister, two things you can do which would change dramatically is force people to sign the code of conduct on grocery, and secondly, making sure you’re from competition, because today, unbeknownst probably to most of us, is that if you—if you’re in a plaza and the landlord, usually they would put restrictions that if you had one of the big banners, you cannot bring a discount brand next to them. So these things need to stop. So all these things when you talk to—and I’ve had a number of discussions—they say, minister, it’s not one thing. There’s no silver bullet. If it was easy, it would have been done before. But they say, everything you’re doing and more is going to help us, and that’s really the mindset that I have is I’m fighting the good fight for Canadians because who’s going to do it if we don’t do it?
Mercedes Stephenson: One last question is you look at cross sectors beyond just grocery but also telecom and airlines. One of the big concerns is what you’re identifying, this lack of competition that is costing Canadians a lot of money. Are you open to allowing foreign firms, American firms, to come into Canada, whether it’s grocery, telecom or airlines to reduce some of these prices and create competition?
François-Philippe Champagne, Innovation, Science and Industry Minister: It’s interesting you ask because you almost read my mind. I’ve been talking to some—in the grocery sector, let me be specific—I’m starting to make calls to some CEOs around the world and say, hey, have you looked at Canada lately? Because I think if you talk to all the experts, they said minister, the more sustainable thing you can do is to have a more competitive environment. You know, the push you’re doing is okay, but you know, bring competition because for the long term this is what really is going to help and we’ve seen it in other sectors and we have examples in other countries. So, yes, I’m doing that, and it’s part of the number of things that I’m trying to do. Like I say, on day four, we’re far from saying it’s done. We’re saying this is a fight. So we’re going to do all sorts of things, but the bottom line is that I want to help Canadians. I know that this is a difficult time. I know the price of groceries is taking a big part of their available income, and I’m fighting the good fight, but I think together, you and I, and all the viewers, we’ll be able to spend where people provide value for money.
Mercedes Stephenson: I’m sure a lot of viewers very interested in that last bit of news that there could potentially be some international competition coming to Canada soon. Minister, thank you so much for joining us today, and Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
François-Philippe Champagne, Innovation, Science and Industry Minister: You too. It’s always a pleasure.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up next, taking stock of two big firsts in Canadian politics.
Mercedes Stephenson: Now for one last thing…
This week, Canada had two historic elections, representing change as high profile political jobs begin to reflect the diversity of our nation. In Manitoba, NDP Leader Wab Kinew became the first First Nations provincial premiere.
Mercedes Stephenson: Kinew spoke powerfully about what this means to his family, including his Uncle Fred, a residential school survivor who was on the stage with his nephew on election night.
Wab Kinew, Manitoba Premier-Designate: “Think about what yesterday meant for him, who was in St. Mary’s Residential School, who experienced the worst of it in our country’s history.”
Louis Plamondon, Bloc Québecois MP: “ Greg Fergus”.
Mercedes Stephenson: In Ottawa, Liberal MP Greg Fergus was elected as the first black Speaker of the House of Commons. The win was full-circle for Fergus.
Greg Fergus, House Speaker: “In 1988, I sat right there. Right there at the foot of the Speaker’s chair as a parliamentary page, where I was awed by the Majesty of this sanctum of democracy.”
Mercedes Stephenson: And the emotion and joy was clear on the Hill.
Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal MP, Bourassa: “It’s an historical moment for us, for kids like mine, because I’m a granddad, how important it is to come here and to see his picture.”
Mercedes Stephenson: Beacons of hope for future generations who can now finally see themselves represented in two of the highest roles in Canadian politics.
That’s our show for today. Thanks for spending time with us, and Happy Thanksgiving. We’ll see you next week.