The West Block – Episode 13, Season 12

THE WEST BLOCK

Episode 13, Season 12

Sunday, December 11, 2022

Host: Mercedes Stephenson

Guests:

Jonathan Wilkinson, Natural Resources Minister

Jagmeet Singh, NDP Leader 

Location:

Ottawa, ON

Mercedes Stephenson: Ottawa ups its game on critical minerals; everything from producing electric batteries to our national security could come from these key elements. We’ll dig into a multi-billion dollar strategy they’re pitching.

And NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh is on the show. Does he think he got the deal of the century or has buyer’s remorse over agreeing to keep the Liberal government in power till 2025? We’ll find out.

I’m Mercedes Stephenson. Welcome to The West Block.

The federal government unveiled a nearly $4 billion strategy, aimed squarely at positioning Canada as a global supplier of critical minerals. What are those? Well, think about things like lithium, nickel and cobalt. They’re all necessary elements in the shift to electric vehicles, and they also come with some pretty big national security implications. And in many ways, Canada’s playing catch up in this field and has to contend with major players like China who have been working on this for a long time. So, is it enough? And can it happen fast enough?

Joining me now is Natural Resources Minister Jonathan Wilkinson. Nice to see you minister, welcome to the show.

Jonathan Wilkinson, Natural Resources Minister: Thank you very much.

Mercedes Stephenson: I was reading through this strategy and there are so many mentions of national security and it’s easy to kind of hear, “Ah, lithium, copper, who cares?” But there are very serious concerns about national security, Canada’s energy future and it seemed to me like there was a lot in here that was not so thinly veiled references to concerns about Russia and China. How much as what’s happened in recent years with the government in Beijing and with Russia’s war in Ukraine contributed to your government deciding you need to do something about critical minerals, to get that supply chain inside of Canada where we’re not relying on countries like Russia and China to provide these things?

Jonathan Wilkinson, Natural Resources Minister: Well it certainly had something to do with it. I would say there are kind of two drivers for this strategy. The first is there is no energy transition without a significant increase in critical minerals and so Canada needs to do its part alongside some of our allies like Australia who also are very focused in this area, in order to ensure that not just Canada but the world can actually move through the transition and fight climate change.

But the second part of it is, we need to ensure that not just the minerals but in particular, the processing of those minerals, is done in locations where we can be secure and stable in terms of our access to supply. I think the world learned a lot in the aftermath of the illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine where Germany found itself very much dependent on Russia for oil and gas. I don’t think anybody wants to be in that position on a go forward basis with critical minerals. So it did certainly inform that. I would say, you know, if you think about rare with elements, I mean it’s between 80 and 90 per cent of those are actually processed right now in China. Well that’s just from a national security perspective, not somewhere where we want to go, our American friends want to go, our European friends want to go and so it did help to inform some of the strategy, for sure.

Mercedes Stephenson: And for people who are saying like what do critical minerals do? Why are those so important for energy transition and national security? Can you explain a little bit about that?

Jonathan Wilkinson, Natural Resources Minister: Sure. So if you think about fighting climate change, I mean part of fighting climate change is about technology. Technology is not a climate plan, but certainly thinking about how you usefully develop and deploy technology is. Solar panels need critical minerals. Wind turbines need critical minerals. Batteries for cars and a whole range of applications require critical minerals like lithium and cobalt and nickel, and so you cannot actually have abundance of the technologies that are going to help us flight climate change unless you have access to significant amounts of critical minerals. So they are intricately, you know, connected and that is why there is a huge push on here in Canada, but also in many countries around the world, to ensure that we are moving as expeditiously as possible, to create more supply.

Mercedes Stephenson: My understanding, is that between this strategy and the changes to the Foreign Investment Act that were made last week, you’ve essentially banned foreign state owned companies from coming into Canada and owning critical mineral mines, so a lithium mine, for example. I’m curious to know how strict that’s going to be, because if you’re talking about some companies coming from places like Russia and China, they may not actually be state-owned, but they could be heavily state influenced and a lot of folks would point to Huawei as an example of that. So how stringent are your rules going to be in regards to countries that could potentially be adversaries and what seem to be or look to be private companies on paper, investing and owning mines for critical minerals in Canada?

Jonathan Wilkinson, Natural Resources Minister: Well, I think that’s a very good question. I think the first step that we took was the new policy with respect to investment in mining and particularly as it relates to critical minerals, where we’re really looking to ensure that folks are not connected to the state, that companies are not connected to the state. But there is a broader review of national security and in national investment policy that is ongoing, where we actually need to answer some of those questions and it’s not just about companies that may not be directly connected to the state but it’s also about other instruments that actors may want to use where they simply don’t, you know, invest but they actually have 100 per cent off-takes, for example, in the mining space. All of those are on the table. We need to ensure that there are not big loopholes that we are actually doing the things that we need to do. We welcome foreign investment from folks like our Australian friends and our American friends that is not being state directed. But of course, we have to be very careful in this new geo-political environment with respect to investments that may come from actors that are not allies.

Mercedes Stephenson: I noticed reading your plan there’s $3.8 billion, which is no—you know, that’s not chump change in terms of money. But what I didn’t see was really a timeline and some of what you’re talking about is really time intensive. You’re talking about sending geologists up to find these reserves. Some of them we think we know where they might be, but we don’t know how much. Those areas are in many cases inaccessible and would have to have roads built. You’re talking about having environmental energy provided through electricity grids. I mean this is stuff that could take you decades to build. Are you going to be able to move in time on this strategy for it to make a difference?

Jonathan Wilkinson, Natural Resources Minister: Oh yes, I think we are. I mean, I think you make good points in terms of the length of time in some cases being elongated. But I would say there are many proposals that actually have been moving through the process already. I mean you saw us announce the approval of the Marathon Palladium Mine in Ontario just last week. There are many other projects that are advanced in terms of their state of development. There is some where we haven’t even discovered the resource that is true. But part of this is actually building capacity step by step. Some of it will be near term, some of it will be medium, and some of it will be longer term. But as I’ve said many times across this country, this represents a generational economic opportunity for this country. It’s one that can sustain significant jobs and economic growth for this country, for decades. And so yes, some of it will take time. But some of it, actually, we will execute on very quickly.

Mercedes Stephenson: Realistically, how much of some of these minerals do you think we have? Because when I was doing the research, things like nickel, we have apparently 2.1 per cent of the world’s reserves compared to Australia who has 22 per cent. Cobalt, we have 2.9 per cent, whereas the Democratic Republic of the Congo has 46 per cent. Is it worth the investment?

Jonathan Wilkinson, Natural Resources Minister: Oh, it absolutely is. I mean, we do have significant reserves in a number of these things, but there’s enormous untapped potential. That’s one of the reasons why we’re doing more work in terms of geological science on a go forward basis. I mean from a geological perspective, Canada has an opportunity here that is a very significant opportunity, in the same way that it is for Australia. So it is worth the money. It is worth the money not just in terms of the jobs and the money that actually comes from the extraction of minerals, but the processing which is like a manufacturing operation. The manufacturing of batteries, I mean, look, Minister Champagne has been announcing battery manufacturing plants and electric vehicle manufacturing plants across the country over the past number of months. Part of that is because people see the critical minerals exist here and they want to be part of that associated value chain and it’s also, to be honest, partly because we actually have a clean electricity grid and they can actually manufacture products that are virtually carbon free. Canada has huge comparative advantages in this area and we can capitalize on that, if we are smart, thoughtful and strategic. And that’s exactly what this strategy is intended to do.

Mercedes Stephenson: I have to ask you about oil and gas as well. You’re the natural resource minister, the situation with Russia, of course, has created this global crisis, as Ian Bremmer from Eurasia Group pointed out on this show, even the German Green Party now accepting or advocating for fracked gas to be sent to Europe.

One of the things you talked about learning in this plan was the importance of rapid approval for projects. Would you consider more rapid approval for oil and gas projects as well right now, given the situation in Ukraine and our allies in Europe?

Jonathan Wilkinson, Natural Resources Minister: Well I mean, first of all, I mean we have been actually working to try to help our friends in Germany and the rest of Europe, and of course, to support our Ukrainian friends. You saw that we announced very soon after the brutal invasion of Ukraine that we would augment production of oil and gas by 300 thousand barrels and barrel equivalents per day by the end of this year and we are on track to do that. So that is part of Canada’s contribution to the world. Certainly, you know, we are looking at approvals, particularly as it relates to liquid natural gas, but that has to be done in a manner which actually respects our environmental obligations as well, has to fit within Canada’s overarching climate plan, and has to be done in a manner where we are assured that it actually is going to reduce carbon emissions world-wide. So we have been looking at a range of those things, including, you know, a potential plant on the east coast of Canada that would be intended to supply gas to Germany. But at the end of the day, it has to make economic sense and it has to actually be something that the German’s themselves feel is something that’s going to help them and that’s an active conversation that we’ve been having with the Germans.

Mercedes Stephenson: One last question for you. Has the introduction, and now passing of the Sovereignty Act in Alberta, changed your calculus at all on how you’re dealing with that province? 

Jonathan Wilkinson, Natural Resources Minister: Well, I was in Calgary to meet with Minister Guthrie just a couple weeks ago. It was a very productive conversation. I think we have strong common interests in some of the economic opportunities going forward for Alberta and for Canada and I look forward to building on that. I’m somebody who actually is much more interested in collaboration than conflict. I used to be a constitutional negotiator for the province of Saskatchewan, so it’s an area I actually know reasonably well. And I would just say to you, I think there’s so much opportunity if we work together. If we work together, we can seize those opportunities and that’s the message that I bring to Alberta every time I go.

Mercedes Stephenson: Minister Wilkinson, thank you for joining us this morning.  

Jonathan Wilkinson, Natural Resources Minister: All right, thank you very much.

Mercedes Stephenson: Up next, NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh weighs in on the gun control controversy and why he says Ottawa isn’t doing nearly enough to fix the health care crisis. 

Mercedes Stephenson: NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh is calling out the Liberals for not taking action on the long wait times in hospitals across this country.

Jagmeet Singh, NDP Leader: “This is serious crisis and we need to see immediate action. The prime minister is not taking it seriously. As prime minister, that’s what I would do: Immediately meet with the premiers and find solutions to this problem.”

Mercedes Stephenson: Improving health care, pharmacare and dental care were all top priorities listed in the Supply and Confidence Agreement which is what keeps the Liberals in power with NDP support until 2025. Mr. Singh has also criticized the government for what he says is “Failing to do enough to address high inflation and the cost of living” after yet another Bank of Canada rate hike last week.

As the House is getting ready to wrap for the holidays, I am joined now by NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh, to take stock of the agreement that you have with the Liberals, the state of the nation, and of course, those hot topics in Canadian politics you’ve been dealing with all week. Nice to see you, Mr. Singh. 

Jagmeet Singh, NDP Leader: Nice to see you as well.

Mercedes Stephenson: I’d like to start with gun control because this is a really contentious issue for the NDP. You have both very urban downtown ridings and very rural ridings, and gun control plays very differently in those two areas of the country. There has been a lot of pushback against the Liberal government’s proposed—very quietly proposed—changes to gun control that some say would see hunting rifles, for example, taken away. They’re concerned about that. The Assembly of First Nations has come out and said that they’re against this. They’re concerned about Indigenous hunting rights. We have heard Charlie Angus, one of your own MPs come out and say that he’s concerned about this. So I guess my first question for you would be: Are you concerned about?

Jagmeet Singh, NDP Leader: Well we raised serious concerns and I mentioned that when I spoke to the Assembly of First Nations that we don’t want to see any laws that breach the treaty rights of Indigenous communities, those treaty and inherent rights to be able to hunt and to provide for their families and live a traditional lifestyle. So those are concerns we’ve raised, as well as we understand the needs of hunters and of farmers to be able to continue to do what they do. And so we raised concerns about the amendment, but we’re united as a party. We support the bill which is to keep communities safer with a handgun freeze and a number of other changes. In fact, it’s things we’ve improved. The red flag and the yellow flag provisions, we’ve actually made them better because we believe these are important provisions to keep communities safe. So our party is united in support of the bill, but we’re also united in our concern about the amendments which the Liberals put in, in the last minute, which they themselves are having a hard time explaining how it will work and raised some concerns about impacts on Indigenous rights, as well as hunters and farmers.

Mercedes Stephenson: So will you support that bill if the Liberals don’t rewrite the amendment, to clarify?

Jagmeet Singh, NDP Leader: Well we’ve said to them that they need to fix it and they’ve committed to fixing it. So our understanding is that the bill will be—the amendment will be fixed. And once it’s fixed, we’ll take a look at it. But as it stands, this amendment is problematic. It’s something that we have a problem supporting.

Mercedes Stephenson: Looking as well about issues people are talking about, the cost of living. Everybody knows it’s super expensive right now. You go to the grocery store, it’s a fortune to put gas in your car, just the basic things in life are challenging. And you came out swinging against the Bank of Canada this week. They put another rate hike in. You’re saying this is making it harder for people to live. I thought it was interesting that you were criticizing the Bank of Canada because it kind of puts you on the same page as Pierre Poilievre. The elected federal government doesn’t tell the bank what to do, so I guess what’s your angle there with criticizing the bank which is supposed to be independent of politics?

Jagmeet Singh, NDP Leader: Well we have a very different position from Poilievre, who wants to personally fire the governor. We think that is an overreach and is certainly trying to undermine the independence of the Bank of Canada, and that’s the Conservative position.

Our position, is New Democrats have always been vocal when an institution makes decisions that hurt people, and to raise the concerns of people to say that increasing interest rates at a time when the cost of living is so high, will only increase the pressure and burden on families, those with mortgages that are variable are feeling the impacts right now, with mortgage payments that are now increasing by over a thousand dollars for some families. And those that have debit, it’s going to impact them directly and we know more people are using their credit cards to pay for things like groceries and other necessities because it is so costly. So we’re concerned about that and we really put the responsibility on the government, on Justin Trudeau, to come up with a plan to deal with inflation that doesn’t mean the only response is to increase interest rates.

Mercedes Stephenson: The auditor general came out last week and said that $4.6 billion in COVID spending went to ineligible individuals and it sounds like the Canada Revenue Agency is not too keen to try to go back after this money. What’s your position on that? Do you think that that money was given out too easily? Do you think that there should be consequences for people who were ineligible? Do you think the CRA should be trying to get this money back?

Jagmeet Singh, NDP Leader: A couple of different things that I want to put out in response to that. One is that we draw a distinction between those who committed overt fraud and those who made a mistake. Fraud should be prosecuted. Fraud should be followed up on with the fullest power of the law and it is wrong. And we need to use all the resources to go after fraud. We also make a distinction between the big fish and everyday families that were just struggling and were told that this is a way to provide help for themselves and their families and took that help versus larger corporations that inappropriately used things like the wage subsidy. So our push is to say, let’s go after fraud and let’s go after the big fish, the large players that took lots of money inappropriately and focus our efforts there, and let’s not actually target people who are struggling because they are poor or people with lower income, or people that took the help that was offered because they were told that that was the best way to get help for their families. And so we make that distinction.

Mercedes Stephenson: And I think that sounds like a reasonable compassionate response, but how do you know who did it on purpose and who didn’t?

Jagmeet Singh, NDP Leader: Well in cases that—some of the evidence that came forward from the auditor and in other sources provided, there was people that used fraudulent names, people that used the names of people that were passed away or deceased. They used, you know, inappropriate means to obtain the money. That’s something that’s fraud and that should be prosecute, no question about it. And some of the larger companies that took large sums of money and didn’t actually keep their workers hired, didn’t keep employment levels high, those are examples where we can say well clearly that was not the purpose and the spirit and intent of some of the supports that were available and those are groups that should be asked to pay back the money.

Mercedes Stephenson: It’s cold and flu season. I know you now have a little one yourself, so I’m sure that the concerns about the state of children’s hospitals across this country strikes home for you like so many Canadians. And for many adult’s hospitals as well, it’s being described as a crisis. Part of the agreement that you laid out with the Liberals identified dental care, health care and pharmacare. When I was reading through your health care section, it wasn’t super specific. It didn’t have sort of the numbers and the amounts that the other sections did that bound the government to that. Would you consider trying to go back to the government and do you think you could even renegotiate that? How do you hold them accountable on health care when it’s supposed to be one of your priorities but it seems like this is an ongoing disaster that’s unfolding?

Jagmeet Singh, NDP Leader: Well first of all, it is a part of our priorities and we did lay it out in our agreement, you’re absolutely right and it is a disaster right now. Frankly, the Liberal government is failing to show leadership. The crisis we’re seeing in our country, the Red Cross being called into children’s hospitals in Ottawa, trailers being set up because of the overflow in the children’s hospitals in Alberta, children dying because of the flu in B.C. It is clear that this is a national crisis and it cannot be solved at the provincial level, because one of the major concerns is human health care resource shortage. So worker shortage—health care worker shortage—that can’t be solved by provinces who are trying to recruit from one province, creating a shortage in the province that they recruit from. So that’s not a solution and so the government has to step up, show leadership. We need to see more funding for frontline health care workers. We need to see more funding in general for our health care system. We need to see a strategy around how we can tackle the shortage of health care workers, some of that’s going to involve the immigration system. Some of that is going to involve taking the Canadian—the new Canadians and Canadians that are here with international training and unlocking their ability to work in Canada. So there’s a lot that needs to be done. We’re not going to give up fighting. We have an agreement that gives us power. We’re going to use that power to fight for Canadians.

Mercedes Stephenson: I guess that’s where I want to go with that. How far are you willing to go, because this is a really critical issue? Pierre Poilievre, Yves-François Blanchet, Elizabeth May, none of these party leaders has the ability to bring down the government, but you do. Are you willing to bring down the government over health care if they don’t increase funding?

Jagmeet Singh, NDP Leader: Well, I would flip the question and say we are willing to do whatever it takes to fight for people’s—to get the health care they need. And that means not giving up. A number of times, we were confronted with a no when we said people need help and we didn’t give up. We kept on fighting. I’m a fighter, that’s what I do. I’m going to fight for people. And just because we’re not getting the results now, doesn’t mean I’m going to give up. We’ve got an ability to force this government to act and we’re going to use our power to make that happen. But yes, there may come a time when it becomes clear to us that the Liberal government is just not willing to do what’s needed to help people and we reserve the right to withhold our support. We understand the ramifications of such a decision, but right now, our focus is on fighting and not giving up on people, not giving up on the fact that this government made commitments.

Mercedes Stephenson: If part of your fight is that you actually do have that big stick that you can say, you know, we can pull the rug out from under you. We can go to an election and this is a crisis. What’s your timeline on how long you’re willing to give the government to respond in a way that you think is appropriate before you say enough is enough?

Jagmeet Singh, NDP Leader: Well, we’re nine months into the agreement. We’ve used our power to get people help and we know that there’s a lot more that’s needed. So we’re going to keep on fighting. We’re not going to give up. We’re not going to give up simply because we’re not getting the results right now. Canadians expect us to fight as hard as we can to get results for people. Unlike the other parties who are just putting their hands up and haven’t really done anything to influence decisions, we have. We’ve made the government—we forced the government to deliver things like dental care, to deliver on things like the GST rebate, rental supports as well, giving people more money in their pockets. And we know that health care is a priority, so we’re going to use our power and we’re going to keep on fighting. We’re not going to give up. The Liberal government made commitments to Canadians. We’re going to hold them to account. We’re not going to let them off the hook.

Mercedes Stephenson: NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh, I’m sure we will be talking about this again soon. Thank you so much for your time.

Jagmeet Singh, NDP Leader: Thank you.

Mercedes Stephenson: Up next, why political watchers are keeping a close eye on the results of a federal bi-election scheduled to happen tomorrow in the Toronto area.

Mercedes Stephenson: Voters in the Ontario riding of Mississauga—Lakeshore head to the polls tomorrow in a race that has attracted a lot of attention and interest.

The riding has been Liberal since 2015, but the Conservatives did win it back in 2011 and it’s considered to have a number of the kind of voters that Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre would need to attract and win over in order to grow his support in vote rich Ontario. We’ll be watching the outcome of that closely.

That’s our show for today. Thanks for joining us. For The West Block, I’m Mercedes Stephenson. We’ll see you next Sunday. Have a great week.