THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 15, Season 7
Sunday, December 17, 2017
Host: Vassy Kapelos
Guest Interviews: Government House Leader Bardish Chagger,
Minister Candice Bergen, NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh
Location: Ottawa
On this Sunday, MPs left Ottawa late last week after a fiery few months. The government has taken the most heat on their controversial proposed tax changes for small business owners. We’ll ask Government House Leader Bardish Chagger if she regrets introducing the changes.
Then, heckling in the House: The tone on Parliament Hill reached another high, or low, depending on how you look at it, recently, when a Conservative member was removed from the chamber. Do things need to change?
Plus, Jagmeet Singh, the Leader of the NDP, failed to lead his party to a win in any of the four federal by-elections last week. We’ll ask him what this dismal election showing means for his party and how he plans to turn the ship around.
It’s Sunday, December 17th. I’m Vassy Kapelos, and this is The West Block.
Nearly six months after proposing controversial tax changes aimed at small business owners, the government has backed off on most of them, including income splitting, the details of which were announced late last week. That’s when a business owner legitimately spreads income to a family member to lower the overall amount of income tax paid. The proposals themselves generated a ton of backlash, arguably more than the Liberals have faced for anything else in the two years they’ve been here in Ottawa. And opposition parties say they’ll keep hounding the government on the issue because there are still some aspects of the proposals that aren’t clear. So, do the Liberals regret how this all played out?
And joining me now is Government House Leader and Minister for Small Business Bardish Chagger. Thanks so much for being here, Minister. Nice to have you back on the show.
Minister Bardish Chagger: Thank you for having me.
Vassy Kapelos: Happy holidays to you and your family.
Minister Bardish Chagger: Likewise.
Vassy Kapelos: I wanted to start off by asking you about the second half of that portfolio, small business, because your government about six months ago introduced three what ended up being very controversial proposals to change the tax code, generally aimed at people who are small business owners who have incorporated. You released last week, some details about income sprinkling exactly how that will work. If you had a do-over would you have introduced those three proposals in the way you did?
Minister Bardish Chagger: What I thought was really good, was that we actually went to Canadians to have the conversation to actually consult with Canadians to ensure that we were getting it right. And we had said that from the very beginning that we wanted to make sure the tax system was working for our job creators, our small business owners, and that they were repeating the benefits of a fair tax system. And after listening to Canadians, engaging with Canadians, I believe we came to a really good spot. So the good news is all small businesses, 100 per cent of them, will have a reduction in their taxes in January to 10 per cent and to 9 per cent in 2019. And there are parts that we’re moving forward with and other parts not. And the income sprinkling piece, Minister Morneau came out with clarifications and the reasonableness test which is simpler. It’s easier and basically you will file your taxes the year after for the tax year. So there’s some time. And I would like to reassure small business owners that we are here to work with them, for them, because we know their success is our success.
Vassy Kapelos: You use the word “reassure”, which I think is interesting because you’re right, you did make these proposals. Then you consulted and you amended them. You scrapped one, you amended another. You clarified the reasonableness on the income sprinkling. But at the same time, it did generate a huge reaction and it did make a lot of small business owners feel like your government was targeting them. Do you regret the way that it played out?
Minister Bardish Chagger: I would say I’m pleased with the outcome because part of my mandate letter given to me by the prime minister was to see a reduction in the small business tax rate to 9 per cent. So I wanted to see the tax system that works for small businesses, the very people I represent at the cabinet table. We have seen growth in our economy. We have seen confidence in our economy. Our economy is growing faster than any in the G7. And the numbers that came out yesterday, 441,000 jobs created in one year. And those are being created by our small businesses. Those are our job creators. They are the backbone of the economy, so we will always ensure that their voices are heard and that the system works for them.
Vassy Kapelos: Do you feel like that message was lost in the last six months, though?
Minister Bardish Chagger: We all have to remember that small businesses do many jobs. They are small businesses, so one person is the marketer as well as the accountant and so forth, and sometimes that information is lacking. Perhaps more information was necessary. Perhaps we should have reached out to smaller groups before going out with a mass proposal. We want Canadians to be represented in the House of Commons. We want to hear their voices. We are the government that consults. We’ve taken unprecedented levels of consultation. And so we’ll continue to do that. But the town hall strategy that we deployed to ensure that we were getting into communities sure did help to make sure that people knew that we wanted to have a conversation and hear their concerns, to ensure that we were getting it right.
Vassy Kapelos: Okay, let me move to the other half of your job which is government house leader. The number of pieces of legislation, there was an interesting analysis done a few days ago that looked at how much your government has accomplished as far as legislation goes at this point in your mandate versus what the last government was able to accomplish and I think the number was 61 pieces for the Harper government of Legislation compared to 30 for your government. Is that an issue?
Minister Bardish Chagger: For myself, it’s really about making sure that the House of Commons, is functioning for Canadians. Something we had said in the election was that we will ensure that their voices are heard in the House of Commons. Canadians did not feel that their voices were always heard under the previous government and that was part of our commitment to say members of Parliament will ensure that the voices of Canadians, their constituents is heard. So we’ve had a lot more debate on legislation. The comparison is always interesting because Prime Minister Harper had two minority governments prior to receiving a majority mandate. Canadians sent us to Ottawa with a majority mandate in 2015. But I would say the quality of our legislation is, I believe, more representative for Canadians. It works for Canadians. Their voices are heard and we’ve had more debate. And I’ll give you an example: cannabis legislation, which is Bill 45, Cannabis Act, we’ve had over 103 speeches in the House of Commons on that legislation to ensure that voices are heard. It went to committee. Committee scrutinized that legislation and they had over 100 witnesses appear.
Vassy Kapelos: But now it’s in the Senate. And it’s just there, so how long does it rest there? Is there kind of a fine line between having a fulsome debate and not actually getting things done?
Minister Bardish Chagger: So we’ve had 37 pieces of legislation received royal ascent. There are currently eight pieces of legislation in the Senate, of which one is a bill referring to. The Senate has a responsibility to also scrutinize legislation to ensure its good legislation. We want to ensure that we’re advancing good legislation, and that’s why I appreciate working closely with the Senate because I do believe that they are important to the democratic process.
Vassy Kapelos: So you don’t have any concerns about the cannabis legislation you mentioned, impaired driving, passenger bill of rights, access to information. It’s all in the Senate right now. You have no concerns about any possible delays there.
Minister Bardish Chagger: I would hope that they would continue working, wanting to advance the mandate that Canadians gave us. They know very well that we want to move ahead on these commitments so that we can deliver for Canadians. I’m sure they want the government to deliver for Canadians, but they also have a responsibility to scrutinize legislation. And we have a responsibility as ministers to ensure that senators have their questions answered. There are many credible people in the Senate that have expertise and information. And if they have good questions that will benefit Canadians, we need to make sure that we’re providing those answers.
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Vassy Kapelos: Okay. We’ll leave it there. Thanks for your time, Minister, happy holidays.
Minister Bardish Chagger: Likewise.
Vassy Kapelos: Up next, the Conservatives are on fire in Question Period, but it’s not translating to the ballot box. We’ll ask their House leader why.
Minister Blake Richards: “There was a lot of heat here.”
Speaker of the House: “Order. The Honourable member for Banff-Airdrie will come to order or he can go outside, or be helped outside, which would he prefer? Which would he prefer? I ask the Sergeant-At-Arms to remove Mr. Richards.”
Vassy Kapelos: Welcome back. That was the scene from Question Period a few weeks ago when one Conservative member was booted out. Debate on the Hill does get heated at times, but these last couple of months the tone has become more toxic. So what has stirred the passions across the aisle?
And joining me now is Conservative House Leader Candice Bergen. Great to have you here, thanks so much for your time.
Minister Candice Bergen: Thank you.
Vassy Kapelos: I appreciate it.
Minister Candice Bergen: Nice to be here.
Vassy Kapelos: I want to get to what’s happening on the Hill and what has happened over the past session in a bit. But I wanted to start off by asking you about the by-elections last week. The Conservatives lost in three of four of them. What happened?
Minister Candice Bergen: Well definitely we’re disappointed to have lost the Surrey riding. You know, I mean I think by-elections certainly they’re important, but as well, sometimes things are going on in Ottawa that people outside of the bubble aren’t watching. I think we’re happy with a couple of things. Our percentage definitely did increase right across the country. We’re pleased to see that, but we also know we just have to keep working. We want to get our new leader Andrew Scheer’s face, his message, who he is, out there. And so we’ll keep working hard. But I think when you look at the results, even though we lost, I know we are encouraged by the increases in our overall percentage.
Vassy Kapelos: Were you surprised at all given the atmosphere on the Hill and the issues that your party has been kind of drilling down on with the Liberals I think, for example, of the tax issue that has been very controversial. Were you surprised? You mentioned the Ottawa bubble that it didn’t translate to those by-elections.
Minister Candice Bergen: Well, I think it did. And again, I think the fact that our—
Vassy Kapelos: But you lost.
Minister Candice Bergen: We lost, right. But I do think when you look at the results and the support that we have is not only consistent and solid but it’s growing. And the know the message that we did hear at the doors was even though people aren’t necessarily fully tied into what’s going on, we heard a lot of we don’t quite trust the finance minister. You know, the things that he’s doing, we’re not necessarily certain of what it is, but we don’t quite trust what’s going on. And I think that that’s something that the Liberals have to be very careful of, and I think that they should be careful not to take that support for granted. That kind of arrogance, people do start to see through. So we were definitely hearing things like, you know, we want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but something that they’re doing, something the finance minister’s doing just doesn’t pass the small test.
Vassy Kapelos: They did, though, still give them the benefit of the doubt. Does it worry you going into a—you know, we’re halfway through now. In two years we’ll have the actual federal election. Does it worry you at all?
Minister Candice Bergen: Well, I was around in 2013 when we were a majority government and I know how things can change very, very much in two years. So, I know what we’re going to continue to do is show Canadians that we’re not only a government-in-waiting but that they can count on us to have a positive message. And we hope that between our new leader, who he is, what Andrew Scheer stands for, as well as the work that we’re all doing in our constituencies and in other ridings, we hope that Canadians will give us another chance in 2019.
Vassy Kapelos: Let me ask you about that positive message because things in Question Period and on the Hill have been pretty testy. Do you think that that is the message that’s coming across? I mean one of your colleagues was actually removed from the House of Commons a few weeks ago because of how heated things have gotten. Do you think a positive message is really being sort of put through?
Minister Candice Bergen: Well listen, we’re dealing with some pretty tough and very serious issues. We have a finance minister who’s under investigation by the ethics commissioner for two different reasons. One was for introducing legislation that he could very well have personally benefitted. The other is for not putting his assets in a blind trust. There are issues around that. And we have a prime minister who’s under investigation. Really serious issues, but I believe that if you look at the way we ask questions. The questions that we’ve asked, it’s been in a respectful tone. Now, definitely when the government doesn’t answer questions or repeats talking points over and over and over again. That’s disrespectful. That’s disrespectful to Parliament, it’s disrespectful to Canadians. And so certainly sometimes the passion flares and tempers flare. But I think when you look at what we’ve been doing overall, whether it’s been on the small business tax changes which we had to be forceful on. We couldn’t be quiet and gentle. This was a government that was going to be raising taxes on small businesses, calling them tax cheats. Taxpayers’ small businesses were being very loud and vocal to us, we to amplify that voice and so we had to be passionate. We couldn’t hold back. But, I do believe that we did it in a respectful way and it’s our job to oppose the government. We can’t let them get away with some of the things that they’re doing.
Vassy Kapelos: Do you think that the tone has been detrimental at all in Canadian’s image of your party? Do you think it contributes to that at all?
Minister Candice Bergen: No, I don’t see that. I think if anything, right now the government, people are asking about this government’s ethics. They’re asking about their hypocrisy with the tax changes for small businesses when in fact, they’re sheltering their own income and their own assets. So, I’m happy with the tone. We have very, not just smart, but competent positive people on our frontbench. Canadians do see us as a responsible Opposition. We are not lighting our hair on fire for nothing. We are working with the government. I think you will have seen on different pieces of legislation where we worked, not necessarily in Opposition. We were critical. We asked questions, but they were able to move some legislation through. But certainly when the government doesn’t answer questions, when the government calls our constituents tax cheats, when they’re the ones that—
Vassy Kapelos: To be fair to them, I think that’s the impression that they would. But they didn’t—did they use the word tax cheat?
Minister Candice Bergen: Well, they actually—yes, they did, absolutely. When they first tabled and introduced and talked about these tax changes in July, they said there are people who are using loopholes and not paying their fair share.
Vassy Kapelos: But that’s different than calling someone a cheat.
Minister Candice Bergen: Well, I guess we can go back and if I find the words I’ll let you know. But I think that they did, not only by implying, but I think there was, you know, people are cheating the tax system. That’s coming from Bill Morneau and Justin Trudeau, who by the way don’t have their taxes increased.
Vassy Kapelos: And understandably, there was a lot of controversy over issue for sure. We have seen them sort of back away. One of the three they totally got rid of. Another one they’ve amended and sort of watered down. And we’re still waiting to find out about the third. Do you think it’s at all time to move on? Do you think they listen to what you as the Opposition said, what the critics said? They’ve made the amendments or is this an issue that you will continue to persist?
Minister Candice Bergen: Well, they have just a couple days ago, when these changes are going to be coming into force in two weeks, they have just started to let small businesses know what these changes are going to entail. They haven’t given the whole picture. We absolutely can’t stop pushing them. Bottom line is they can’t be trusted.
Vassy Kapelos: Okay. We have to leave it there, but thanks for your time and happy holidays to you and your family.
Minister Candice Bergen: Thank you, Merry Christmas.
Vassy Kapelos: You too.
Up next, NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh and why his party failed to make any electoral gains in the four by-elections last week.
Vassy Kapelos: Welcome back. Jagmeet Singh took over as NDP Leader in October and has so far decided not to run federally he says, “So he can focus on building his party.” But those efforts proved fruitless last week as the NDP failed to win any of the four by-elections in Newfoundland, Ontario, Saskatchewan and B.C. And even saw their share of the overall vote dip. So is it time for the leader to rethink his strategy?
Joining now from Toronto is NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh. Mr. Singh, it’s great to have to you on the show.
Minister Jagmeet Singh: Great to be on the show, Vassy.
Vassy Kapelos: Thanks so much for joining us. In the last five by-elections, we mentioned a couple of them, your party actually failed to win a seat. In fact, the NDP share of the vote went down. How do you explain that?
Minister Jagmeet Singh: Well they weren’t seats that we ever had historic strong presence in before, so that’s not surprising. I’m of course not happy with the results, but at the same time, I’m not surprised by the results. I didn’t expect that the two years that our party was not headed in the right direction could be turned around in just two months. So I wasn’t surprised and I’m not discouraged in any way. I know that the work that I’m setting out to do is not a sprint, it’s a marathon and I’m looking forward to it. I’m actually really excited about the challenges. I’m excited about changing the direction of the party and I’m excited about all the work that we’ve already started doing, travelling across the country and meeting people. And I’m going to continue to do that.
Vassy Kapelos: I want to ask you about sort of that marathon in a second. But just to drill down on what you said, when you said the party wasn’t going in the right direction for the past two years, what specifically do you mean?
Vassy Kapelos: How do you envision the rebuilding process unfolding? Have you set up certain goalposts for yourself as leader? Obviously, the election is just two years away.
Minister Jagmeet Singh: As Opposition parties, we often focus on just opposing. And to me, that’s enough. There certainly things that we’re going to oppose, but we need to do more than just opposing and we need to propose. And beyond just proposing solutions, we need to actually inspire people. So that’s going to be the big culture shift that I want to do. I want us, as a party, to really get people to get excited about what the future could hold for our country, how we can build a better society when no one’s left behind, where we have true justice and inclusivity for all.
Vassy Kapelos: I’m glad you brought up the idea of not just opposing, but proposing because I think a lot of Canadians are wondering, if you do vote for an NDP government in 2019, what is one thing specifically that your government would be doing?
Minister Jagmeet Singh: Well I’ve talked a lot about it, but the issue of inequality. I think inequality is the biggest issue impacting our society, so some of the ways for us to tackle inequality are to invest in more universal social programs. So we have health care, but we need to take the next step to include pharma care. There are far too many Canadians that can’t afford the medication that they need. We also need to look beyond just including pharma care to looking at dental care and eye care, so we can close the loop in providing full holistic universal health care. I’ve also talked about things like the Paradise Papers, the fact that we have such massive amounts of wealth that are being siphoned out of our country. Our current government doesn’t have the will, the conviction, or the courage to do anything about it. We’re the only ones that know that this is something that Canadians don’t accept, that we need to do something about the tax havens, the offshore tax havens that exist, CEO stock options, we need to invest that money into building a society where we don’t see barriers to education and it’s something I’ve talked about during the campaign leadership. How do we build a society where students don’t have to make a choice between going to school and trying to find a job that they can actually make that decision to go to post-secondary education with a system that’s supported where there is free tuition. We need to look at how we can go beyond just words on climate change and actually seeing action on climate change, to tackle the issue of climate and the environment, not just for the future, but we need to tackle it for today. There are a number of issues we need to do. We need to invest and address transition. We need to build an economy that’s sustainable, that’s inclusive. We don’t see wealth being generated for the few. We need to see wealth generated for everybody, so that everyone can enjoy in prosperity, a shared prosperity. So there’s lots that we need to do and I’m excited about presenting these ideas to Canadians and have something that they can be hopeful for in the next election.
Vassy Kapelos: So how do you pay for those ideas? Are you open to raising taxes or would you propose that an NDP government wouldn’t stick by a balanced budget? How do you pay for all that?
Minister Jagmeet Singh: Well one of the things that I just talked about, I think one of the massive ways we can afford that is tackling the offshore tax havens that exist. And there are some reports that put the amount of wealth that’s being siphoned out our country that we’re losing in terms of missed opportunities to invest in a more just society. They put the figures at around $47,000 billion per year. That could pay for a lot of the social programs. The current government hasn’t even talked about it.
Vassy Kapelos: Sorry to interrupt, but you have to invest a lot in the CRA, for example, to even go after that amount of money. So how would you pay for that?
Minister Jagmeet Singh: Well, I mean investing in the CRA is going to take an investment. That’s makes a lot of sense. We also need to change some of the legislation. Some of the changes are just a change of legislation. There are currently accords that we have with international jurisdictions that allow tax havens to exist. We can actually close those loopholes. The CEO stock option, that’s a legislative change. It’s not going to cost money. It’s actually having the will and the conviction to do something about it. So a lot of the changes are actually very easy for us to do if we had the conviction to do it. And we’re the only ones. New Democrats are the only ones who really believe that everyone should be contributing their fair share and when those who have extreme wealth and are powerful and well-connected, should not be getting an excuse not to invest. We should ensure that those who are powerful and well-connected contribute to a better society.
Vassy Kapelos: But beyond, I guess, just as a final question, beyond investing and going after international tax havens, would you run a deficit to support all these investments? Would you be open to raising taxes?
Minister Jagmeet Singh: Well, I firmly believe in a progressive tax chasing system to ensure that those who are able to invest their fair share. During my campaign I talked about some of the ways we could do that looking at high income earning or looking at a tax around corporate tax rates. I’ve also talked a lot about in general when we look at certain things we look at them as investments. I don’t believe that in difficult economic times, I’m firmly opposed to austerity, so I don’t have a firm line on balanced budgets. I believe that if we are able to, obviously we need to ensure that we have a robust budget that’s balanced. But there’s no way that I would ever accept austerity, so I’m firmly opposed to austerity in terms of our finances.
Vassy Kapelos: Okay. Thanks very much for your time, Mr. Singh, happy holidays.
Minister Jagmeet Singh: Thank you very much.
Vassy Kapelos: And that is our show for today. Thanks so much for joining us. I’m Vassy Kapelos. See
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