THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 9, Season 7
Sunday, November 5, 2017
Host: Vassy Kapelos
Guest Interviews: Minister, François-Philippe Champagne,
Chief Commissioner Marion Buller, Premier Bob McLeod
Location: Ottawa
On this Sunday, the prime minister heads to Vietnam tomorrow with the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreement in the spotlight. Is a new TPP deal possible without the U.S.? And will signing on anger the Americans? We’ll ask the Trade minister.
Then, commissioners have released an interim report for the inquiry into missing and murdered Indigenous women. The report calls for a national police task force and blames the federal government for delays and problems so far. The inquiries chief commissioner is here.
Plus, the premier of the Northwest Territories is calling for a national debate on the future of the North. We sit down with the premier to find out what has him up in arms.
It’s Sunday, November 5th. I’m Vassy Kapelos, and this is The West Block.
As the 21 APEC leaders gather in Vietnam this week, the main focus for many of those countries is to finalize the Trans-Pacific Partnership free trade deal. President Donald Trump pulled the United States out of TPP, but the remaining countries have continued negotiating. Canada has yet to specifically say if we’re in or out. So which is it? I sat down with International Trade Minister François-Philippe Champagne before he left for those trade talks to find out.
Thank you so much for joining us back on the show again. We appreciate your time.
François-Philippe Champagne: It’s a real pleasure.
Vassy Kapelos: Nice to see you. Minister, I wanted to start off by asking if a new or renewed Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement is announced next week without the U.S. Is Canada part of that deal?
François-Philippe Champagne: Well allow me to just step back for a minute, just to put that in perspective. We all know that 10 months ago when the U.S. decided with withdraw from the agreement, about seven months ago, Trade minister, myself and others, we met in Chile to try to see what we are doing with that. We were faced with a situation where the U.S. had left and there was a sense that we should recommit to open, free principle trade in that part of the world. And for Canada, this is our way of influencing the terms of trade in that very important region of the world. So when we left that meeting we tasked the officials to come up with a set of options for the leaders to consider next. So what you’re seeing really next week is a set of options being presented to the leaders. My role, the role of Canada, has been to make sure that whilst we preserve market access we try to improve the terms of the deals. As you know, within that grouping of nations, Canada’s always been at the forefront of progressive and inclusive trades. So clearly on one end you saw me trying to preserve market access, which is very important for Canadians. As you know, when you look at this Trans-Pacific Partnership, there’s Japan, the third largest economy in the world so it’s really about more than trade. This is about Joe politics. I mean if you look at this part of the world, are we going to be part of the trading relationship? We are a pacific nation. Not only are we a pacific nation, but we want to influence the term of trade. So what does that mean? It’s about having a chapter on gender. It’s having a chapter on labour on the environment. It’s trying to push kind of the progressive aspect of trade deals because that’s what Canada in 2017, we want trade but we want principle trade.
Vassy Kapelos: So will those progressive aspects be part of something that is presented to leaders next week?
François-Philippe Champagne: Well I would just say to Canadians, who are watching us, if you think negotiating at three is difficult, imagine at 11. So clearly, Canada is probably the flag bearer on whatever is progressive in the world. I have contacts with my counterparts to try to push our agenda, which is a progressive one. I don’t want to speculate what we’re going to be able to achieve. Clearly, we’ll have to see on the ground, but clearly we have been there to make sure that, you know, you see in the world now there are countries like Canada, we say make trade real for people. You know the prime minister asked me one simple thing. He said make sure when you do these things, make trade real for people. What does that mean? Jobs for the middle class, better choice, better prices for consumers and making sure our SMEs can get into global trade. So with that frame in mind what we did was that preserve market access, tried to improve with the progressive elements that are dear to Canadians because what I hear from Canadians is that they want trade, but they want principle trade. And this has been Canada’s agenda on the table, remaining in the middle because as you know, some nations had already ratified that and yet Canada and others which were at the beginning of considering that agreement. So this has been my role since the last few months I’ve been Trade minister.
Vassy Kapelos: Just so I’m clear though. Is it the preference of the Canadian government that TPP be resurrected in whatever form it ends up being resurrected, but is that the government’s perspective because your government has been ambiguous on that.
François-Philippe Champagne: Well I would say clearly what is in Canada’s best interest is to have a say in Asia Pacific. Whatever the vehicle, Canada wants to be there because it’s—
Vassy Kapelos: So it’s not necessarily TPP?
François-Philippe Champagne: Well I’m considering, you know, we’ve been invited by the Asia nation, for example, in Southeast Asia, to initiate exploratory talks about a free trade agreement. As you probably know, I’m on my way to India after with the largest delegation in 10 years. So it’s a multifaceted approach. Clearly when it comes to Asia Pacific, I think Canadians are expecting Canada as a pacific nation to be front and centre when we’re talking about trade. And it’s our best way to influence the term of trades for decades because trade is over decades. So I’ve always preferred to be at the table, to bring the influence, bring the values that Canadians expect us to put forward while trying to get market access because—
Vassy Kapelos: Sorry to interrupt, but no clear commitment to TPP at this point.
François-Philippe Champagne: I would say that we’re going there with our minds open, protecting market access whilst pushing for progressive elements. And the leaders would have to consider a set of options. This is basically where we are, but what I wanted to make sure as Trade minister of Canada is to be at the table because when you look at trade today, it’s much more than tariffs. You know for people who are watching, tariffs are coming down. It’s really about market access. It’s about non-tariff trade barriers. It’s about seeing trades in the future. What’s going to be the role of data in the future as we move to goods, services and solutions? So obviously with the team on the ground, I’m trying to think about where do I need to position Canada now for prosperity in decades to come, for families, for middle class, for SMEs and obviously this includes being at the table when it comes to the TPP, talking to the Asian country, making sure that we improve our relationship on the trade side with India, and making sure that we keep engaging, but also always being conscious that what Canadians expect of us is to put the progressive elements forward.
Vassy Kapelos: And on that note, I know it’s not part of this trip, but you will eventually be heading to China. Where do things stand on trade talks with China? When will you make a decision about pursuing free trade with that country?
François-Philippe Champagne: We have large consultations. This is very important for Canadians. I think we had more than 6,000 admissions, people expressed from business, from civil society. So my message to the Chinese has been always the same, is that we will do that on our own timetable. So we’ll take our time to consider the input we receive from Canadians. We will do that on our terms. So people expect us to look at the principle aspect of trade that we want to pursue and we will do that with eyes wide open. Canadians understand that there are challenges when it comes to trade with China. But there are also opportunities, so we’re looking at that. We understand—
Vassy Kapelos: There was a point though when your government was saying the decision could be made this fall and fall has come and gone. So is there a timetable that you can express to Canadians?
François-Philippe Champagne: We are still considering our options because as you know, this is something which is significant. So what I’ve said to the Chinese who have been asking, I said these three messages. We’ll do it on our timetable. We won’t’ be pressured by anyone. We’ll do that with eyes wide open. Other countries that had a trade agreement with China, we want to learn from that. We want to make sure. Like I said, it’s not just about tariffs. You know a tariff is a number, that’s easy. It’s about market dynamic. How do you make sure the Canadians companies or SMEs could compete in that? What would be the IP rules? What would be other aspects that are essentials to make sure that we get right to have market access? And you do that by consulting, by engaging. And my sense to Canadians is that I’ve always preferred, in my experience, to be at the table, to shape the terms of reference. But we still have to make a decision as to when and how we are prepared to go forward.
Vassy Kapelos: Okay. Thanks for your time, Minister.
François-Philippe Champagne: It’s a real pleasure.
Vassy Kapelos: Safe travels.
François-Philippe Champagne: Thank you very much.
Vassy Kapelos: Thank you.
Up next, the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women’s Inquiry issues its interim report. They want more time and more money. Midway through their mandate, we’ll ask the inquiry’s chief commissioner why.
Vassy Kapelos: Welcome back. Commissioners for the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women’s Inquiry issued their interim report last week laying the blame for their slow start on too much red tape in the federal government. The commissioners say they need more time and possibly more money before they can issue their final report scheduled for next November. In a moment we’ll talk to Chief Commissioner Marion Buller. But first, here’s your West Block primer.
There are more than 1,200 cases of missing or murdered Indigenous women in Canada between 1980 and 2012. The data comes from the RCMP, but an inquiry set up to investigate the issue says the numbers are likely much higher. That’s just one point made in a 111 page interim report.
Another is the recommendation to set up a national police task force based on the number of witnesses who say they still need answers about their loved ones. Nine hundred people have registered to speak so far.
The inquiry itself was slow to start: Ottawa’s fault according to commissioners who say they faced copious amounts of red tape trying to set up offices and hire staff.
Now, the big question, how long will the inquiry take and will it offer any justice to the people who have lost those they love?
And joining us now is chief commissioner of the inquiry Marion Buller. Thank you so much for being with us.
Chief Commissioner Marion Buller: Well thank you.
Vassy Kapelos: It’s nice to see you here, great to have you on the show. I know you mentioned when you released the report that the complexity of what you’re studying would probably require more time. You didn’t say how much time though. Why is that?
Chief Commissioner Marion Buller: It’s a calculation that has to be done very carefully, not to be taken lightly. We have to let all sorts of scenarios because we want to be able to hear from all the people who want to talk to us, who want to have time to listen to experts and to people who represent police forces, governments, coroner’s services, hospitals and a lot of people who want to talk to us. Already we have over 900 people registered to talk to us, so we have a lot of work to do.
Vassy Kapelos: And is there a point at which you will be able to determine how much more time is necessary?
Chief Commissioner Marion Buller: We’re doing the calculations in different combinations of time and money as we speak.
Vassy Kapelos: My colleagues put the question to Minister Carolyn Bennett who’s overseeing this file right now if more time would be complied with, essentially a request could be complied with. And she said families want closure. They don’t want “this to take forever.” What’s your reaction to that?
Chief Commissioner Marion Buller: Well I agree with her. We hear from families all across Canada, take your time, do a good job, don’t rush, listen to everyone before you make your recommendations, but we’re also hearing we want this to be over, we want and end time for this so that we can move on. So it’s a very fine, very delicate balancing act.
Vassy Kapelos: Do you anticipate the government will comply with the time and money requests? Do you have a sense so far I guess?
Chief Commissioner Marion Buller: If I knew the answer to that right now I’d probably also know the winning numbers for the lottery.
Vassy Kapelos: When do you expect to make the request?
Chief Commissioner Marion Buller: Before the end of the calendar year is the deadline I’ve set for us.
Vassy Kapelos: Okay. I wanted to ask more specifically about one of the recommendations that this interim report made and that it to create a national police task force. Why do you think that’s necessary?
Chief Commissioner Marion Buller: Well for the three reasons. The first being this issue was raised in the pre-inquiry process. Families then, maybe two years ago now, wanted answers to what happened in investigations or what didn’t happen in investigations. Now as we’re hearing from families all across Canada, they’ve been raising the same concerns. We want to know what happened. Why didn’t the police ask this person? Why didn’t they follow up? Why didn’t they get back to us? There are a lot of people out there who want answers, and desperately want them I might add, and deserve to have answers to their questions.
Vassy Kapelos: And so the creation of this force, would it change the mandate of the inquiry because it’s my understanding and I know we’ve spoken before that the mandate only allows new information to be investigated, so would that change things?
Chief Commissioner Marion Buller: It would because now the police would be able to go back and look at cases that have been closed or cases that have been deemed, and I hate to say it, but cold cases. We don’t have that ability right now. Plus, this task force, as we’ve been told, has to be independent. That’s the third reason for making the recommendation. People don’t want information going back to what they perceive was the same organization that let them down to start with.
Vassy Kapelos: So who has to approve that? Is that the federal government? Is it the RCMP that would be involved in that? How would it work?
Chief Commissioner Marion Buller: I expect that it’ll be a consultation between the federal government, police forces and services across Canada as well as Indigenous organizations, families and survivors.
Vassy Kapelos: Did it surprise you to the degree to which you’ve been hearing from people who want more answers when it comes to the investigations of these?
Chief Commissioner Marion Buller: I was expecting to hear that, but not to the extent and not with the conviction, I think, would be the right word that we’re hearing it. Every family we hear from raises the issue of I want answers.
Vassy Kapelos: Was it a mistake to exclude that process from the original mandate do you think?
Chief Commissioner Marion Buller: I don’t know. The problem is any national inquiry has to have an end date. That’s very important. And a task force like the one we recommended would not have an end date because we could see a lot of work having to be done. And so this way it’s open-ended.
Vassy Kapelos: What is your level of faith that at the end of this process, whenever it is, the recommendations that U.S. commissioners make will actually be implemented? And I ask because it was a long process for the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, for example, the recommendations were made at the end and they were accepted as a whole by this government, but very few have actually been implemented at this point. So how much faith do you have that what you come up with in the end will actually have an impact in government?
Chief Commissioner Marion Buller: I always had faith that when you make the right recommendations that are workable, understandable, concrete, they’ll be implemented. There is a very mobile, vocal activist group who called for this inquiry for years and I have great faith that they will continue to lobby government to make sure that all of our recommendations are implemented.
Vassy Kapelos: And finally there was a slow start to the inquiry. We heard from a number of people who were upset I guess with the pace. I know that you have cited certain issues in the federal government. Do you expect those procedural challenges to be overcome? Do you think that the process will be a different one here going forward?
Chief Commissioner Marion Buller: I think that we’ve turned the page. We had a very difficult year. I don’t deny that. But we’ve learned, we’re moving on and we’re going at great pace. We have just finished our hearings in Membertou. Next week we’re all off to Edmonton. After that, we’re in Saskatoon, Thunder Bay, Maliotenam, Rankin Inlet, we’re moving.
Vassy Kapelos: Okay, we’ll be watching. Thanks very much for your time.
Chief Commissioner Marion Buller: Thanks you so much.
Vassy Kapelos: It’s nice to have you here.
Up next, debates over the fate of the Northwest Territories, it’s uncertain future and the premier’s plea to Ottawa.
Vassy Kapelos: Welcome back. A call for an urgent national debate on the future of the Northwest Territories came last week as its premier issued a red alert on the North’s fate. Since the federal government declared a ban on drilling in the North, Bob McLeod says people there are paying the price. I spoke with him to talk about what he calls, “The plea to save the northern dream.” Here’s our conversation.
Thanks very much for joining us today, premier. It’s great to have you on the show.
Premier Bob McLeod: Pleased to be here.
Vassy Kapelos: Is it fair to say that you’re not happy with the federal government right now?
Premier Bob McLeod: Well I’m very concerned about what the effects of some of the decisions that have been made, specifically with regards to the permanent moratorium on oil and gas in the Beaufort Sea. It’s had a very traumatic effect because the Northwest Territories has always been known as oil producing territory. Since 1936 we’ve been producing oil and gas and now here we are. For about a year we haven’t produced one molecule of oil and gas in the Northwest Territories and from the permanent moratorium with the National Energy Board are involved with the repairs to a pipeline that’s been delayed for over a year. The possibilities for the on land part of the oil and gas is also at risk.
Vassy Kapelos: So what is the economic impact specifically of that moratorium on the Northwest Territories right now?
Premier Bob McLeod: Well at the time there was about $2.6 billion worth of offshore work that had been bid on and that’s disappeared.
Vassy Kapelos: That’ a lot of money.
Premier Bob McLeod: Yeah. And then since then the federal officials have been approaching the oil and gas companies asking them what it would take for them to give up their oil leases. So we’re concerned about that because obviously they’re looking at permanent disappearance of oil and gas and there’s no economic strategy to replace that. And when the moratorium on fishing in Newfoundland happened 25 years ago, the federal government was there with $9 billion to help transition the workers, also for training, develop new industries and we haven’t seen any of that. And also with devolution, one of the commitments under devolution was to negotiate offshore management or co-management of the offshore and that hasn’t happened either.
Vassy Kapelos: Have you asked the federal government for some kind of replacement program?
Premier Bob McLeod: Well we said that we’re going to leave trillions of dollars’ worth of oil and gas in the ground and we’re going to need something to replace it with. So obviously we’re very concerned. We need jobs. The Northwest Territories is the only jurisdiction in Canada whose population has been declining. We ask our children to stay in school so that they can get the good jobs and business opportunities when they graduate. And we’re having a hard time fulfilling our end of the bargain so we’re starting to see our young people having to leave the North to find jobs and employment. And that’s the kind of concern that we have.
Vassy Kapelos: And what has the response from the federal government been like so far? If you’re expressing to them that we are resource dependent and your decisions are hurting our economy. We’d like some sort of mitigating action to be taken. What have they said to you in response?
Premier Bob McLeod: They said that permanent moratorium provides for a five-year review that government of Canada has appointment Minister Bennett and Minister Carr to Co-chair the review. They have also in response to our concerns about the delay in implementing some of the devolution provisions, specifically legislation under our McKenzie Valley Resource Management Act; he indicated we could discuss it as part of the review, similarly for the co-management of the offshore. Those were specific commitments that were negotiated with the government of Canada.
Vassy Kapelos: Is that enough?
Premier Bob McLeod: If the government of Canada—that’s why I want to start a national debate about the Arctic because the expectation seems to be that we should no development in the Northwest Territories because of the greenhouse gas emissions. Well oil and gas is still being produced across the rest of Canada, the southern part of Canada. And there are still the significant greenhouse gas emissions from manufacturing and so on, and here we’re being asked to stop development to essentially live in a large park. And we need jobs. We have our own hope and aspirations for ourselves and our families and we need to be able to show that we can provide some good middle class jobs to our people.
Vassy Kapelos: What do you think is motivating the government to make decisions that in your view aren’t good for the North?
Premier Bob McLeod: Well I think that certainly with regards to the moratorium, it’s to I guess to align themselves with the United States at the time and to show a leadership role and expect that’s probably where all the voters are. And the rest of Canada has a lot more voters than in the Northwest Territories.
Vassy Kapelos: Well thanks very much for you time today, I appreciate it.
Premier Bob McLeod: Thank you very much.
Vassy Kapelos: Nice seeing you.
And that is our show for today. Thanks for joining us. I’m Vassy Kapelos. See you back here next week.
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