The West Block Transcript: Season 6, Episode 25

THE WEST BLOCK

Episode 25, Season 6
Sunday, February 26, 2017
Host: Vassy Kapelos
Guest Interviews: Minister Ralph Goodale, Scott Jones, Preston Manning
Location: Ottawa

On this Sunday, as President Trump pushes for more border protection in the U.S., here at home the government is being asked to take action on illegal asylum seekers. Are the feds prepared to do more? We’ll put that to Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale.

Then, cybersecurity is one of the biggest challenges governments around the world face. Are we doing enough to protect ourselves from a cyberattack? The man charged with protecting Ottawa’s cyber systems is here for his first television interview.

And, is it time to rethink conservatism in Canada as Populist candidates rise on the right. We’ll ask Reform Party founder, Preston Manning.

It’s Sunday, February 26^th. I’m Vassy Kapelos, and this is The West Block.

As President Trump prepares to announce further border restrictions, more asylum seekers from the U.S. are crossing into Canada illegally by foot, in some cases, risking their lives to do so. The NDP is calling on the government to suspend the agreement that allows all of this to happen, while the Conservatives are asking for a more rigorous application of the law. So what does the government plan to do as the number of people walking over the border keeps growing?

Joining me now is Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale. Mr. Goodale, great to see you again.

Minister Ralph Goodale: Nice to be with you.

Vassy Kapelos: I wanted to ask you if you could update us, and our viewers, on the number of people who have crossed the border in between those official entry points over the last few weeks.

Minister Ralph Goodale: Well the numbers are changing all the time. They’re clearly higher this year than last year or the year before. They’re not as high as they were seven or eight years ago. These numbers do go up and go down from year to year. So far, the CBSA, Canadian Border Services Agency, and the RCMP have been able to deal with the situation effectively. They’ve reallocated some resources internally to make sure they have the right people in the right place at the right time. I was very happy to hear at the end of last week both the United Nations High Commission for Refugees and the Canadian Council for Refugees, both making positive descriptions and reactions to how CBSA and RCMP are dealing with the situation at the border. I’ve had the opportunity to talk to the MPs that are involved both in southern Quebec and in southern Manitoba; the reeve of Emerson. I’ve talked to some of the cabinet ministers in Manitoba. Obviously we all want this to work well. We want the border to be secure. We want Canadians to be safe, and we want to respond generously and compassionately to those people who are fleeing situations in their home countries that have obviously made them feel very vulnerable.

Vassy Kapelos: I know you said that the numbers have swelled before, seven years ago, and I think even seven years before that, but we’ve talked to a lot of people who have crossed the border and almost unanimously they’re doing it because of the atmosphere they say that President Donald Trump has created there. When he actually brings in his new ban or new immigration policy which is expected in the coming weeks, do you anticipate the numbers will then increase?

Minister Ralph Goodale: The officials in my department, which is public safety, plus the RCMP, CBSA and the immigration department, together with Global Affairs Canada are just monitoring this meticulously. And they’re also trying to anticipate the circumstances that might develop in a few weeks or a few months to be able to predict what may happen and to plan accordingly so that we’re—

Vassy Kapelos: And so what’s your sense based on their information?

Minister Ralph Goodale: You know, I think it’s just too early to tell. Some of the initiatives that have been taken in the United States are of a temporary duration. Others are more long-term and more permanent. We need to be ready for every eventually. What’s interesting though is that the vast majority of people who are presenting themselves at the border are actually transiting through the United States. They’re plan was not originally to be in the United States but to come through the United States.

Vassy Kapelos: To Canada? So why not just come through the regular border crossing?

Minister Ralph Goodale: Well that’s a very good question. That’s another part of our analysis. What is causing this flow from the very beginning in the origination countries where it started?

Vassy Kapelos: Is there some message saying, you know something, somebody telling them that it’s better to go across an illegal crossing because that’s kind of problematic.

Minister Ralph Goodale: It’s hard to tell and that’s part of our planning. We’re taking all of these factors into account, analyzing the sources and the very—

Vassy Kapelos: And when do you think you’ll know?

Minister Ralph Goodale: Well, it’s an evolving situation. This is not something I think where you will be able to say we’ve got a perfect analysis. We’re going to have to be able to move with the changing circumstances. And that’s why I’m so pleased to see the nimbleness and the agility of both CBSA and the RCMP as they’ve responded to the first stages of this.

Vassy Kapelos: On that though, we spoke to the union who represents the border agents and they said that they’re feeling very stretched. They’re asking for at least 300 more officers. What’s your response to that?

Minister Ralph Goodale: CBSA has done some internal reallocation. If they believe they need more resources, I’m sure they’ll not be shy about bringing that—

Vassy Kapelos: But that’s not the union. That’s not the guys on the ground. That’s the people who administer them.

Minister Ralph Goodale: Well, we will watch very carefully on all sides. Clearly here, protecting Canadians is the number one obligation. Maintaining safety and security at the border, making sure the refugees are treated in accordance with Canadian law, all Canadian laws are being enforced as well as international conventions and agreements. We’ve got the watchful oversight of the UN High Commission and the Canadian Council of Refugees. The provinces are obviously being very vigilant here. We’re anxious and more than happy to work with Premier Pallister as he has requested and his ministers. I think we’re all in this to make sure that an unusual and difficult situation that involves a lot of humanitarian issues is properly dealt with by all concerned, and at the end of the day it’s all done with safety and security in mind.

Vassy Kapelos: Can you envision a circumstance though in which the numbers actually start to decrease?

Minister Ralph Goodale: Yes, I can.

Vassy Kapelos: What would cause that?

Minister Ralph Goodale: Well, the flow was so spontaneous to start with, it—

Vassy Kapelos: Was it really spontaneous though because from our perspective, just from our reporting it seems like when Donald Trump started talking about banning refugees, more people started coming across the border.

Minister Ralph Goodale: Well, there was obviously a trigger point for some people. But this is part of the analysis of where did these folks actually come from? What was the origination point? Was it in the United States or was it somewhere else? Was there a transit route that was actually contemplated a long time ago crossing the Atlantic into some parts of Latin America and then moving north? That’s all part of the analysis. And we’re learning the lessons of this, and so far, congratulations to our agencies and also to the local people in Emerson and in Lacolle in Quebec. They have responded in a magnificent fashion.

Vassy Kapelos: Great. Thank you very much for being with us.

Minister Ralph Goodale: Glad to be with you.

Vassy Kapelos: Still to come is it time to rethink conservatism with the rise of populism? But first, the threat of a cyberattack has never been greater. So is our government prepared? We’ll ask the man in charge of Ottawa’s cyber defence.

Vassy Kapelos: Welcome back. Every day there are over 100 million malicious cyberattacks against our government and that number is growing as technology changes and improves. South of the border, Russia’s cyberattack on the U.S. election is being investigated. And here at home, the Liberals say they want to protect the electoral process against cyber threats and they’re making it a priority. But is the government doing enough to prevent an attack? Scott Jones is the assistant deputy minister at the Communication Security Establishment and the person in charge of government cybersecurity. That’s a mouthful. Thanks for being here, Mr. Jones.

Scott Jones: Thank you very much.

Vassy Kapelos: Great to see you. So, I wanted to ask you about that number, a 100 million cyberattacks. What does that mean?

Scott Jones: Well, what that means is really that the CSE is actually blocking over 100 million per day and some days trending over a billion different malicious. Now those are malicious actions, not really necessarily a cyberattack. So this would be people looking for vulnerabilities, kind of probing our systems, poking at them, trying to see if there are any holes that they can exploit.

Vassy Kapelos: Who does that? Where are these coming from? And when you say little holes, what does that actually mean?

Scott Jones: So, they’re coming from everywhere and from a whole range of actors. So everywhere from states down to enthusiasts who are simply looking to see if it’s possible. And what we’re looking for is we’re looking for things that can be exploited. So software vulnerabilities, vulnerabilities in the configuration, mistakes that were made, basically anything that could let them open that door and get into our systems.

Vassy Kapelos: We hear all the time in the news right now, cyberattacks, cyber warfare; cyber is the big threat. How big of a threat from someone who actually deals with it, how big of a threat is it?

Scott Jones: Well, it’s big if we don’t pay attention. And we have to be investing and looking at this because as technology grows and becomes more pervasive in our lives, we’re starting to see that everything has some sort of cyber element to it, even our light bulbs now today. And so if we choose to ignore it and just continue to adopt technology and not think about how to secure it and how to protect ourselves, it will become a really big problem. But right now, we’re proven that you can do things that will actually prevent these malicious activities, protect yourself and protect yourself online.

Vassy Kapelos: What about from the perspective of the government? Is it doing enough to protect itself given the numbers that you just shared?

Scott Jones: So, we’ve done quite a bit to improve that. So some of the things we’ve implemented our top 10 list. So we’ve got the CSE top 10 actions you can take and those are something that we can apply all the way from individual persons and citizens in the country up to the largest enterprises like the government. And those are things you can take that actually make yourself a little bit safer online, able to kind of thwart those malicious activities that are coming at us. And so the government is taking—

Vassy Kapelos: What’s an example of something that you could do?

Scott Jones: So for example, applying the software updates, making sure that your systems are up-to-date, using up-to-date operating systems and software. If you’re not using a piece of software, uninstall it. Don’t leave those vulnerabilities open. When you have the option of kind of weakening your security to make it easy, think about that. Do some investigation. It really is about being informed, being knowledgeable and then ensuring that you’re applying that knowledge.

Vassy Kapelos: And does that scale up all the way to the government? Like what is the government doing?

Scott Jones: So the government has been investing in consolidation to try to make sure that we know our IT environment, that we are upgrading our systems that we are keeping them up-to-date. Three years ago, that was the only vulnerability that was exploited was because our systems were out of date. But that’s no longer the case now. We’ve been investing heavily in that and improving the way we manage our information technology. And that’s something everything needs to be doing for themselves as well.

Vassy Kapelos: What is the potential consequence of the government not adequately protecting itself? Like in real world terms, what does a cyberattack—could it threaten our democratic process? What could it do?

Scott Jones: At the individual level, we hold a lot of private information that let you and I do our daily business, so we need to protect that. That’s kind of a sacred obligation of the government and we make sure that that’s done. In terms of democratic institutions and the democratic process side, I think the things that we’re looking for is to provide some light on how to protect that, making sure that there’s integrity in the process, that we can be assured that when an election happened it’s free of interference and able to continue in a way that we’ve become used to and accustomed which is free, open and transparent.

Vassy Kapelos: Do you think that the same thing could happen in Canada that happened in the United States with the election there and Russia?

Scott Jones: Well, it’s a different environment but certainly some of the things that we’ve seen from various actors is cyber is a good means to get information that you can use to kind of shape opinion, to change people’s minds and kind of changing that opinion, moving things around. And so, I think cyber is just a new means of doing something that’s been, not existing for a long time. It’s just that it’s so much easier now.

Vassy Kapelos: Because the government has tasked the new democratic institutions minister with finding out if we are vulnerable. Are you involved in that?

Scott Jones: My organization will be supporting the minister in her deliverable under that.

Vassy Kapelos: Do you have a gut feeling? Are we vulnerable to that?

Scott Jones: I would say it’s hard to say for a gut feeling. We’re always vulnerable to things in cyber. The question is, are they risky enough that they need to be addressed? In terms of the democratic process, Canada’s pretty robust. We have pretty savvy citizenry, so how can we help to support that and build the knowledge? I think really this is about building that knowledge and not being caught unprepared. And so we’re going to support the minister in that.

Vassy Kapelos: And when you look ahead, what are the biggest challenges? What are the biggest risks when it comes to cyber?

Scott Jones: I think really it is looking at information technology and saying why do I need to connect that? Am I making myself more vulnerable? When I choose to do something online is it the right decision? And that scales all the way up to the enterprise level. And then what do I really need to protect? What’s sensitive for me? We all have to make different decisions. And the thing that we have to do in our industry, in the cyber kind of security industry is to make that accessible to people so they don’t have to become technology experts. And that’s the big challenge we face.

Vassy Kapelos: Because it kind of feels like at this point you do. Encryption is not easy unless you’re using something like ‘WhatsApp’ and it’s a given, right? So how difficult do you think that would be?

Scott Jones: Well, that’s actually a good example of where the industry has started to make things easy for us as individuals and as users, where you can start to see these things built in, security by default rather than by configuration or by having to know the steps to take. But how do we kind of help people manage their IT environment or manage themselves on the line? I really think it is about sharing information, sharing more of this data out and providing some of those details.

Vassy Kapelos: And when it comes again, to where the attacks are coming from, obviously we discuss China and the time, we’re discussing Russia. Is the state actor sort of overplaying or outdoing the individuals at this point or is it a balance do you find?

Scott Jones: I think it’s a balance. Really they’re states but they have objectives, and usually to find things that are they’re national goals. But when you look at cybercrime, it’s the huge impact that’s going to hit you and me. And if I look what’s the biggest threat online, it’s actually the growth of cybercrime, the use of those tools that will undermine our confidence in this environment in general. So if that undermines our confidence, then we move back to bricks and mortar shopping and paper based bureaucracy. I don’t think that’s going to work. And so really we need to make sure we’re tackling that as well. It’s not just about states. It’s about everything.

Vassy Kapelos: Well thank you so much for being here, super interesting. Lots of food for thought, I appreciate it.

Scott Jones: Thank you very much.

Vassy Kapelos: Up next, a conversation with Preston Manning on balancing party unity and populism in the Conservative Party.

Vassy Kapelos: Welcome back. Fourteen candidates are running to be the next leader of the Federal Conservative Party. Some like Kellie Leitch and Kevin O’Leary have been charged with putting populist rhetoric ahead of Conservative ideals. Is it time to rethink conservatism? And with so many candidates on stage is it possible for a leader to emerge who can unite the party?

Joining me now to discuss that is the founder of the Reform Party and Conservative stalwart, Preston Manning. Mr. Manning it’s great to see you. Thanks for being here.

Preston Manning: Thank you for having me.

Vassy Kapelos: You’ve talked about the need to balance party unity with addressing populism. What do you mean by that?

Preston Manning: Well, I think the main thing is, I think, is to recognize that there are these Populist sentiments in Canada, large numbers of ordinary people who feel disenfranchised, alienated, disenchanted with governments, parties, mainstream media and experts. And I think one of the tasks of all the parties, and I’m talking to Conservatives, is to tap into that, to recognize it, not to deny it or decry it, but then endeavour to turn it to positive objectives. And I think that’s going to be one of the tasks of whoever the new leader of the Conservative Party is.

Vassy Kapelos: How do you tap into that by focusing on the positive versus the negative because we’ve seen examples, for example, with President Trump, with some candidates who are running right now who tape into that Populist ideal but maybe it has something to do with xenophobia. What do you think they should do?

Preston Manning: Well, I think you start by recognizing what these people are saying and acknowledging it and not denying it, so you can’t say that here. You know, say okay you can say that. Let’s get this out. What is it that is bothering you? What is it that you don’t like? And then let’s see, is there a constructive answer to—like one of the biggest roots of this sentiment in Europe, certainly in the U.K. with the Brexit thing is ordinary people think in these policies that come from governments and politicians that are supposed to improve their lives aren’t. And so I’m disenchanted and disillusioned. Okay, let’s get that out. You may express it in rough language, but okay and then we get that out. Now, okay what kind of a policy? What kind of a government action would actually address that thing that you’re responsible for? So I call it ‘receiver oriented communication’. You start where the person is at and then move to where you want to go rather than starting with your position and telling that person what they can or cannot say.

Vassy Kapelos: Do you think anyone among those candidates is doing that right now?

Preston Manning: I think there’s a number that have the capability of doing it. I think some are doing it. We have to be careful because we’re sponsoring a genuine—we can’t take sides on anything. We can’t comment on the candidates. We’re just endeavouring to create a fair forum for them to get their views out. But in my opening remarks this morning, I kind of stressed, I think that’s one of the main tasks of whoever ends up being leader of the party.

Vassy Kapelos: What do you think, though of the candidates who try to strike that Populist cord by talking about Canadian values and screening immigrants who come here?

Preston Manning: Well if that’s their idea that’s one thing. If they’re hearing that from other people, like you better start where their head is at. Like some of the things are rank and file, people say on all of these subjects would be deemed politically incorrect in this town. And in fact, if the political establishment had their way, they would shut them up. And I find it ironic that people that talk about liberating people from some of the closets that we’ve kept people in, in the past want to stuff other people back in the closet. Like that’s not the way to deal with populism and I’d argue that we’ve got positive examples in this country of where populism’s been a positive force. Why don’t we learn from some of that?

Vassy Kapelos: Like what?

Preston Manning: Well in the ‘20s and ‘30s, there were farmers parties that came out of the west, and they were substantial parties. They were Populist movements. They created governments in Alberta and Saskatchewan and in Ontario. The CCF, which is now the NDP, came out of that. It was born as a Populist movement. And in Alberta, it was a farmer’s government. Populist bottom up that got the Constitutional Amendment that returned natural resources to the province of Alberta from the federal government hat that one act that was all they ever did has been worth billions to Alberta. This is something that came out of a Populist movement. Now there were negative sides to that. The farmer’s movement, they cursed the CPR. If the crops were down they went out in their field and they yelled damn the CPR. Some of them wanted to blow up the tracks. It was a negative side to it, but on balance that energy was channeled in that case three governments that did some good. And I think we should learn from our own populist experience if we want to comment on the populism in other countries.

Vassy Kapelos: Do you think there’s a sense of denial here about this?

Preston Manning: Yes. Oh yes, yeah. I don’t know if you saw the recent issue of The Economist magazine, which is one of the most sophisticated magazines in the world and still has a good following. Every second article in it is on Trump, but it’s not on the policy or the stuff that’s beneath him. It’s on his idiosyncrasies on some of the repugnant things he’s done. It’s denying the roots and focusing on the negative symptoms and I don’t think that’s the way to channel the populism into a constructive course.

Vassy Kapelos: We only have about a minute left, but I want to turn to the race more generally speaking.

Preston Manning: Yeah, yeah.

Vassy Kapelos: Do you think the sheer number of candidates has hurt the race at all?

Vassy Kapelos: And what do you think—you know it’s one thing to become successful and win this leadership race. It’s another to win the next general election against Justin Trudeau. Is there a leader among those you think can do it and what do they have to do?

Preston Manning: I think so, but often governments defeat themselves more than oppositions defeat the government. And I think this government’s well on its way because I remember, you’re much too young. I remember the euphoria around Pierre Elliot Trudeau in ’68. It was far higher than for Justin. Four years later, he came within a hair of being defeated. And it wasn’t so much because of what the Conservatives did. It was what that government did within the four years.

Vassy Kapelos: It’ll be interesting to watch.

Vassy Kapelos: Thanks very much for being here, I really appreciate it.

Vassy Kapelos: Great to see you.

That’s our show for today. We’re always eager to hear from you. You can find us online at www.thewestblock.ca. You can also reach us on Twitter and Facebook. Thanks so much for joining us. I’m Vassy Kapelos. See you back here next week.