The West Block Transcript: Season 5 Episode 36

THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 36, Season 5
Sunday, May 29, 2016

Host: Tom Clark

Guests: Kevin O’Leary, Jason Kenney, Peter MacKay, Susan Delacourt

Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Tom Clark: Welcome to the special edition of The West Block, coming from the Conservative convention in Vancouver. I’m Tom Clark.

And we are going to be looking at that other big political gathering this weekend, the Liberal convention happening in Winnipeg.

Well, this convention may be called a policy convention but all the hallway talk is about the vote for a new leader of this party, which will happen in exactly a year from now.

And one person attracting a lot of attention is this man, Kevin O’Leary, a businessman and the star of an American TV reality show. Sound familiar? Can you say Donald Trump? At times, O’Leary even sounds like the Donald. I caught up with him earlier this weekend.

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Tom Clark: And joining me now is the man of the hour at the convention, Mr. Wonderful, Kevin O’Leary.

Kevin O’Leary: Great to be here.

Tom Clark: Good to have you here. Listen, before we go anywhere with this discussion, I want to ask you one thing. Are you a Conservative?

Kevin O’Leary: Yes, I just joined the party. Now it’s very lucky because as you know, I’m a taxpayer in Ontario. And Kathleen Wynne takes all my money, so I had a few dollars left over. I scraped enough together to buy a membership to the Conservative Party because I felt to come to this platform without membership (pauses) disingenuous really because I want to be a shareholder. I want to address this audience as a shareholder.

Tom Clark: Fair enough, but how genuine was that because you’ve said in the past, look, I could be a Liberal, I could be a Conservative. It’s about the policy. It’s not about the party. Have you abandoned that now?

Kevin O’Leary: No, you know at heart, I’m about lower taxation in support of small business and that has always been the cornerstone and the soul of the Conservative Party. So you know when I was enjoying the platform of debating and watching the landslide that Trudeau brought in to the Canadian political landscape—and I was quite impressed with it actually—I toyed with the idea because unfortunately for him his policies are going to fail miserably in very easily measurable ways. His economic policy is going to be a disaster for this country and there’s going to be an equivalent landslide the other direction. That’s why I’ve decided to join this party because they’re going to be in power in 2019.

Tom Clark: Okay, but to get to power in 2019, you’ve got to become competitive again.

Kevin O’Leary: Yeah.

Tom Clark: Give me that one single thing that this party, now your party, has to do to become competitive again?

Kevin O’Leary: And so this party is going through, in the halls, in the bars, in this town tonight and last night, a soul searching to redefine itself because it can never be majority again in its current configuration.

Tom Clark: In other words, you can get all the Conservative votes, 30 per cent—

Kevin O’Leary: And you’ll still be a loser.

Tom Clark: But you’ll always be second place.

Kevin O’Leary: Yeah. So the plan here is to redefine the brand of what Conservative means: a far broader audience, a larger constituency, a much more open mandate, and so for example, small things but important to Canadians. Assisted suicide? Yes. Legalizing marijuana? Yes. Gay rights? Yes. All of these are going to be identical to the Liberal Party’s, but the big difference and how you differentiate this party is you put it on the side of the taxpayer. More transparency and how taxpayers’ money is spent, more metrics on productivity, more discipline in spending, more adult supervision in how money is actually deployed in measurable ways.

Tom Clark: Let me ask you one question though because this is the intersection of social policy and economic policy. And that if you want to have a bigger role in this party, you’re going to have to address and that’s environment and climate change because you’re talking about millennials. That’s a key issue for—

Kevin O’Leary: You’re absolutely right.

Tom Clark: This party has basically abandoned any notion of policy on that front for the past 10 years, so let me ask you fundamentally first of all, do you believe that climate change is man-made?

Kevin O’Leary: There is no question that man has an impact on climate and you can see it occurring, but it’s how you react to it that matters. And so what we’ve done wrong in this country, and this is something very close to what I think is right, is when you talk about carbon taxation or emissions or standards you wish to make commitments to globally and you make that seriously. You go to the globe and you say I’m going to blow our carbon emissions to ‘x’. You don’t make that a mandate of the government other than to put the regulatory environment in place. You let the private sector create the technology to get to that answer. And so look at what Ontario’s doing, and I’m just using that—

Tom Clark: But what’s the incentive theory there?

Kevin O’Leary: Because what you do is you make it law. You basically say look, we’re going to reduce our emissions to this standard and every Canadian agrees, okay? The Canadian population agrees. They agree. They vote in a constituency that is going to deliver that mandate. The Conservative Party is not against climate change or controls thereof. I mean they want Canada to be the number-one country in a place to live and breathe air in, but it’s how we get there. There’s a different way to get there. I’m very much in favour of providing that incentive to industry and letting them solve it themselves.

Tom Clark: Okay, I have to ask you obvious question. How close are you to deciding whether you’re going to run for the leadership or not?

Kevin O’Leary: Well, it’s a great question and I have a standard answer now as probably all the other members that are considering running. This whole thing’s running a year early, frankly. The fact that you and I are talking about this, we’re having this convention. This is so early in the cycle it’s crazy. This decision will probably be made in January. Anywhere between October and January, you’ll start to see who’s going to come out of the weeds and who’s going to play.

Tom Clark: You’re an outsider although you just bought the party membership—

Kevin O’Leary: Very expensive.

Tom Clark: You’re an outsider, you talk about your business experience, you talk about your TV shows, how big your audience is, what your demo is. I mean you’re talking the lingo of show business here.

Kevin O’Leary: What is politics by the way?

Tom Clark: Well okay, it’s show business for ugly people, right? I mean it’s–

Kevin O’Leary: I think it’s show business on steroids with big outcomes.

Tom Clark: Well fair enough, but explain to me then as a disruptor from the outside with the type of background you’ve got, why are you not Canada’s answer to Donald Trump?

Kevin O’Leary: It’s a great question and obviously I’ve been asked it multiple times in the last 48 hours and there are some similarities. And let’s be honest about it, we both work for Mark Burnett, the number one producer of reality television on earth. We both got our platforms from Mark. We both know Mark. We know each other. I know his family, etc. That’s where the similarities end. I’m not Donald Trump, everybody knows that. But I do tell the truth. I have a very interesting set of followers that in many cases may not even like me but trust me, which is an interesting place. And I have just one goal. I really am interested in making this country more competitively globally in business.

Tom Clark: You want to make Canada great again?

Kevin O’Leary: No, it’s already great. We don’t need to be great again. We need to be competitive financially. I blame our politicians for creating an environment where we can’t even keep our best and brightest. We’re making it so uncompetitive, so highly taxed. So over-regulated with such stupid policy, incompetent, stupidity, I just want to call them out on it. I’ve had enough. I really have had enough. I’m a proud Canadian. I’ve been very lucky in my business career and now I’m just pissed off. I’m going to do something about it. If I can shine the light of transparency and make the life of an incompetent politician miserable so they go pursue another opportunity, I’ve done a great thing for Canada.

Tom Clark: I can’t help that think though of the stories, I’m listening to you, about the guy who cleans up after the elephants in the parade and somebody says you don’t have to do that job anymore. And he says what? And give up show business? But you’re prepared to give up show business for this?

Kevin O’Leary: You know, I think life is a journey and the doors that open to you. You never know what they’re going to be.

Tom Clark: Kevin O’Leary, always an experience talking to you.

Kevin O’Leary: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Tom Clark: Thanks very much. Coming up next, the two most talked about undeclared candidates for the Conservative crown and where they would take this party.

Tom Clark: Welcome back to the Conservative convention here in Vancouver. Well the other person who’s being talked a lot about on the floor of this convention joins me now. Jason Kenney, senior member of the Harper cabinet for many years. Good to have you here. You know we just had Kevin O’Leary on the show and he was saying that in terms of the direction of where the Conservative movement should go, he said yes to gay marriage, yes to legalized marijuana, yes to physician-assisted death. What do you think of that direction? Is that where the party should be going?

Jason Kenney: Well I’d say welcome to the Conservative Party. Welcome to the policy convention. You’re going to find every opinion on the floor here and this is the chance we get to debate those and other issues. I gather Kevin just joined the party three days ago and he’s welcome to express those points of view.

Tom Clark: But on those main issues, which would be seen as sort of moving away from the social-conservative aspect of the party into something more centrist. Is that where you personally want to see the party go?

Jason Kenney: Well, I would say that it depends on the issue. On euthanasia for example, I think many Canadians across the political spectrum, including disability activists, have very serious concerns about the implications of killing individuals who are at the end of life as opposed to providing them with the kind of palliative care that we should be doing more of. I think on marijuana you’re going to hear a range of opinions. A lot of Conservatives would say we have to do everything possible to keep it out of the hands of kids because of the negative effects on adolescent brain development. Others would say let’s at least decriminalize minor possession. So I think you’re going to get a range of views. I don’t think his perspective on any of those questions is particularly abhorrent or out of the mainstream.

Tom Clark: Same-sex marriage?

Jason Kenney: Well the motion was adopted yesterday—well that issue’s been settled so long ago.

Tom Clark: But you personally? You have a great sway in this party so I mean what you believe on these issues is actually important.

Jason Kenney: I’ve been clear with my delegates and publicly that I think that issue is over and done a decade ago that our policy declaration should reflect the legal and social reality that we shouldn’t be trying to re-litigate issues that were resolved 10 years ago.

Tom Clark: I want to ask you, I mean anybody in politics knows the joy of winning and the agony of defeat, as they say. But you went through a particularly bruising election last October. How did you feel the day after the election?

Jason Kenney: I was pretty dead tired, Tom. I’ve got to be honest. I think I did over 600 events and 150 some ridings and 12 provinces and territories. Some days doing as many as 10 events a day and it was grueling as any election is. And I was on a pretty high clip for a decade, over 1,600 flights, apparently over 2,000 nights in hotel rooms with multiple major responsibilities. And so I needed a period of time to just sort of decompress and get my feet back to ground.

Tom Clark: One of the things that you were noted for in the party was the outreach to the ethnic communities or the new Canadian communities, and yet they deserted you on October 19th. In many respects, that was one of the reasons why the party lost. Why did that happen?

Jason Kenney: Well actually, I don’t accept that. Let’s go back a step here. Back in 2004, as best we can tell, the Conservative Party only won about 20 per cent of the votes of immigrants. We doubled that to 42 per cent in the 2011 election. That did go down to about a third of the vote of new Canadians in October of last year. But we still won a higher percentage of votes amongst new Canadians than people born in the country. This is the only centre-right party in the democratic world of which that is true, so our vote share went down less amongst new Canadians than it did in the overall population. And we still won a third of that vote and we can grow from there. But I think if we lost some new Canadians it’s for the same reasons that we lost some voters overall. But the fundamental reason we lost the election, we didn’t really lose voters between 2011 and 2015. We lost only 150,000 from 2011 to 2015.

Tom Clark: So let me ask the obvious question. Are you any closer to deciding whether you’re going to run for the leadership of this party?

Jason Kenney: I’m closer. I hope to make a decision by the end of the summer.

Tom Clark: Which way are you leaning?

Jason Kenney: Ha, ha, nice try. I wanted to hear from people in this convention—

Tom Clark: Come on, you’re open and transparent now.

Jason Kenney: Just between the two of us.

Tom Clark: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Kenney: No seriously, it’s a tough call because I’ve been in parliament for 19 years and anybody has to assume—well for Stephen Harper, it was a 13 year duration. It’s a long time and you have to be absolutely certain you’re prepared to go into a kind of life where you don’t have weekends or evenings. It could not be more demanding, and I wanted to hear what people in the convention think. I’ve been honestly profoundly encouraged by expressions of support, but I haven’t made a decision yet. I will be, in the pretty near future.

Tom Clark: Very quickly, let me get you to address one last rumour, and that is that you may be trying to unite the right in Alberta and run as the Conservative leader in Alberta. True or not?

Jason Kenney: Well I’ve also had a lot of people ask you need to consider contributing in that way. I haven’t ruled anything in or out.

Tom Clark: Okay, Jason Kenney. Still more questions than answers but always good to talk to you.

Jason Kenney: Thanks, Tom.

Tom Clark: Thanks very much. Well the other most talked about undeclared candidate in this convention joins me now, Peter MacKay. Mr. MacKay good to see you again.

Peter MacKay: Thanks, Tom. Good to be with you.

Tom Clark: Let me ask you this, you’ve been portrayed as being the last leader of the Progressive Conservative Party. You’re said to represent the progressive wing of this party. Are you? Are you a progressive any more?

Peter MacKay: I’m a pragmatic Conservative.

Tom Clark: So not a progressive but a pragmatic.

Peter MacKay: I’m a practical Conservative. I’m progressive on some issues. I’m probably a little harder in issues of criminal justice, national defence. I think I’m where a lot of Canadians would be in terms of their comfort level on issues that matter to them. But I think we’ve moved away from this sort of legacy party categorization. I think you’re going to see a lot of people who are here in the hall, some for the first time, who don’t associate with either of that bloodline. They see themselves as Conservatives, modern thinking, progressive but sometimes more right-of-centre Conservatives.

Tom Clark: But are there any more Red Tories as we used to know them back in the day? I mean, forget the party label but within the Conservative movement are there Red Tories left?

Peter MacKay: Absolutely there are, sure.

Tom Clark: And where are they going?

Peter MacKay: Well, I think they’re here. They’re in the room. They’re going to be looking in the next election if they’re not card-carrying members, they’re going to be looking to see that our party has modernized, that we’ve taken off some of the rough edges. That we’ve seriously taken on some of the lessons of the last election campaign and I think that’s part of the catharsis that is happening here. I mean I’m taking away from this week in Vancouver the realization that this party is ready to move on really quickly with a lot of new people, a very diverse base, a strong base, places that we have to pick up strength again, like Atlantic Canada.

Tom Clark: But let’s take a look at some of the policies of modernization—

Peter MacKay: Sure.

Tom Clark: If you want, and let me just throw a few at you: legalization of marijuana, for or against?

Peter MacKay: I’m not for the full legalization of marijuana for the simple reason that it has serious far-reaching implications on mental health patients, on young people, causing absolutely chaos on our highways as we’ve seen in some U.S. states that have gone that route of full legalization. Impaired by drug driving is up 150 per cent in some parts of the United States.

Tom Clark: Let’s quickly run through some of the other social issues though that are identified as being socially conservative. Same sex marriage, for or against?

Peter MacKay: Well we dealt with that.

Tom Clark: Right, but you personally?

Peter MacKay: Sure, absolutely accepting that.

Tom Clark: Okay. When you take a look at the key issue that many people say is the key issue to the modernization is developing a policy, a coherent strategy, if you want, on environment and climate change, something that the party hasn’t really come to grips with in the past. How far would you be willing to go to, say, put on a carbon tax?

Peter MacKay: Well cap and trade is an element of that where you’re looking at trying to control the emissions. You’re looking at a way in which you can recognize that we all have to do more.

Tom Clark: So putting a price on carbon then is—

Peter MacKay: That’s got to be negotiated though very closely.

Tom Clark: Because you’ve been against it for a very long time.

Peter MacKay: Yes we have. We have.

Tom Clark: Is that going to change?

Peter MacKay: I think you’re seeing a lot of the policies here. As I said the rough edges are coming off.

Tom Clark: Are you going to be running for the leadership of the party?

Peter MacKay: Well, Tom, I didn’t come here to make that announcement but I did come here—

Tom Clark: Just between you and me.

Peter MacKay: Well look, I came here because this is my political family. This is a party, an organization—

Tom Clark: So far I’m not hearing a ‘no’.

Peter MacKay: I put a lot of time into.

Tom Clark: I’m not hearing a ‘no’ yet.

Peter MacKay: I’m thinking about it. It’s something that I’m thinking seriously about but there are personal considerations not the least of which is that I have a very young family, which is the reason that seven months ago, it’s only been seven months, I stepped back from politics.

Tom Clark: Alright, Peter MacKay good talk to you again.

Peter MacKay: Great talking to you, Tom.

Tom Clark: Appreciate your time.

Peter MacKay: Pleasure.

Tom Clark: And when we come back, we’re going to go to that other political convention, the Liberal Convention in Winnipeg and journalist and author, Susan Delacourt, right after this.

Tom Clark: Welcome back. Well, all the politics is not happening here in Vancouver. In a very rare event, the Liberal Party is also having their convention, but in Winnipeg. And joining us from Winnipeg is author and journalist, Susan Delacourt. Susan this is a really odd sort of story of two conventions. This convention trying to come to grips with defeat and I guess where you are, a party trying to come to grips with victory. Each has its own problems doesn’t it?

Susan Delacourt: Yeah, it sure does. You know certainly this is a victory lap for the Liberals. You can hear the music behind me. It’s one long extended victory dance. But it means also that the party is getting a little more careful, a little more cautious about much it debates things in the open. It doesn’t want to give away any of its trade secrets for winning elections. We’re still getting lots of access to ministers and people around here. And Trudeau, once he landed from Japan was everywhere. He literally did a flying visit of socials and parties when he landed. But there still is a sense that the discipline of power is in effect now.

Tom Clark: You know what strikes me as being weird, you and I have covered a lot of conventions and every Conservative convention in the last 10 years that I’ve covered all the doors have been closed to the media. In fact, in the last convention in Calgary, we weren’t even allowed to talk to the delegates. Look at what’s happened—

Susan Delacourt: Yeah I’m surprised you’re allowed in the same city.

Susan Delacourt: I think it’s that back a few years ago, the Liberals didn’t have many secrets to protect. You know they hadn’t yet found the winning recipe for power. And now they think they’ve got something good going here and they’re not so sure they want to share that with the general public. It tells you something that the most packed sessions here have been on the campaign mechanics and dynamics. And the policy sessions are a little more sparsely attended.

Tom Clark: So basically what she was saying was that if Justin Trudeau was a female prime minister, the word female was almost like an insult. I found that quite strange. What’d you think?

Susan Delacourt: The word of that did reach here and a lot of Liberals found it strange too. But also, I think as you and I have discussed, not all that unusual. There has been kind of a gender element to their criticism of Trudeau since he landed on the stage. I’ve observed this before that he gets criticisms often that are reserved for women politicians about his hair. About his power comes from his dad. That he may be not as smart or that he’s too emotional. These are things that usually were said about women politicians and it’s interesting the ways in which Trudeau has taken them on himself. So in many ways what Ambrose said last night, I think inadvisably, was that it’s a bad thing to be a woman in politics.

Tom Clark: Just to wrap up, because you were talking about policies and there have been some policy eruptions where you are, especially over the assisted-dying bill and that sort of thing. But I think it’s worth pointing out that these conventions, both in Winnipeg and Vancouver, are unified in one sense and that is the parties do not get to set policies. No matter what the resolutions are, no matter what the debates are, the policy is set by the leader of the party or in your case the prime minister. And so I guess we see these things more as a safety valve for the grassroots to come together, either celebrate or commiserate, depending on which city you’re in. Talk about policy but knowing that there are limits as to how much influence you can actually have.

Susan Delacourt: Oh, very definitely. There were a lot of conversations last night in the corridors here about that very thing is that nobody’s walking out of here with any marching orders, whether cabinet ministers or the prime minister. This is very much Justin Trudeau’s party and he’s going to do with it what he wants.

Tom Clark: Susan Delacourt, always great talking to you from the far distance of Vancouver over to Winnipeg. I appreciate your time today, thanks a lot.

Susan Delacourt: Thanks.

Tom Clark: And that is our show for this week. I’m Tom Clark from Vancouver. We’ll see you next week from our studios in Ottawa. Have a great week.

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