THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 2, Season 2
Sunday, September 16, 2012
Host:Tom Clark
Guests: Thomas Mulcair, Ian Lee, George Baker
Location: Ottawa
Tom Clark:
Welcome to The West Block, on this Sunday, September the 16th from Ottawa. I’m Tom Clark.
Well, coming up on today’s show, NDP Leader Tom Mulcair has arrived in our studio to discuss what he has in mind for the opening of Parliament tomorrow and beyond. And, Senator George Baker and Professor Ian Lee are in our green room getting ready to face-off in the first of this season’s Baker-Lee Debates.
Plus, if past is prologue, what does the last sitting of Parliament tell us about what’s ahead in the next sitting?
After a summer break, it’s a brand new political season on Parliament Hill. Tomorrow the House is back in session and the person kicking it all off with the first question in Question Period, the leader of the Opposition, NDP leader, Thomas Mulcair. He joins us now in studio. Mr. Mulcair, welcome. Thanks very much for being here.
Thomas Mulcair:
Pleasure Tom.
Tom Clark:
There’s a poll out this morning. I just want to get your reaction to it. A Harris-Decima poll shows that the NDP are perhaps slipping from where you used to be vis-a-vis the Conservatives. It shows the Conservatives with 34 percent support, NDP with 27, and Liberal with 24; when you see your numbers starting to decline like that, does that worry you at all?
Tom Mulcair:
No, because it’s the beginning of the session tomorrow as you just pointed out. During the summer, the government has a lot more tools than the Opposition; a bit more visibility. We’ve been doing low key things. I just did a four day jobs tour in South-Western Ontario. I met with a lot of mayors, chambers of commerce and people who are without a job. Hundreds of thousands of good paying manufacturing jobs have been lost since the Conservatives came to power. People are being hard hit in areas like South-Western Ontario in particular and the municipalities are losing their tax base. So these are issues that we’re dealing with at that level and we’ll be bringing them to the House.
Tom Clark:
So you think that once things heat up again…
Thomas Mulcair:
Yeah, we have as many tools as the government during a parliamentary session but we have to concede a certain advantage to them during the summer.
Tom Clark:
What is going to be your number one priority when you go into the House tomorrow, not the shopping list but the number priority?
Thomas Mulcair:
The economy, jobs, that’s what we’ve been talking about the most. We found out last week that Canada’s got the largest trade deficit in its history. The government is gutting environmental legislation, it’s not taking care of the future and it’s certainly not taking care of those good paying manufacturing jobs that are being lost right now. And you know those are jobs with enough of a salary to take care of a family. They came with a pension. They’re being largely replaced by part-time precarious work in the service sector; people need two jobs, no pension, another debt we’re leaving on the back of future generations.
Tom Clark:
I’m wondering, the government has also said that it is going to be bringing in another omnibus bill like we saw last spring on the Budget Implementation Act. Now when that happened last spring, you and your party put up a parliamentary protest about it. We had the marathon voting session. If there’s an omnibus bill put in front of the House this fall, what are you going to do?
Well they could surprise us and put something interesting in it so I won’t presume it in advance but as we say in French, “le passé est en garante l’avenir” [0:03:08] You know, since the past behaviour sometimes guarantees what they’re going to do in the future you can expect some of the things that they would be doing to be completely contrary to what Canada needs right now. We need a government that doesn’t just wash its hands of all these economic problems. You have to look at it in a clear-eyed manor and say, okay, we’re losing the balanced economy we built up since the Second World War. We’re killing off manufacturing sector; we’ve got to try to get some of that back. If that bill does the same thing as the last one, we didn’t just use our tools in Parliament, we went across Canada. You know people from Victoria to St. John’s were organizing meetings. Hundreds of people came out to those meetings and we were able to point out what they were doing. Requiring people to work two more years to get their Old Age Security, gutting Employment Insurance, especially in regions that rely a lot on seasonal employment, and of course, as I mentioned before, going after environmental legislation in a way that will leave a huge deficit for future generations, this time on the ecological front.
Tom Clark:
But are you saying though that if the measures in an omnibus bill are measures that you think are positive or at least take the country in the right direction, that you may support it?
Thomas Mulcair:
We’ve always tried to take a balanced approach. You know, we’ve believed that as the Opposition, of course sometimes we’re going to oppose because we have diametrically opposed views to the Conservatives on certain issues, but on the other hand, we’re also about proposing and if there are things in there that can help bring solutions, of course we’ll support them.
Tom Clark:
So you’re not fundamentally opposed to the idea of an omnibus bill then?
Thomas Mulcair:
Well it depends what’s in it and when you go after things like environmental legislation that has nothing to do with your budget, that’s using the budget bill as a Trojan horse. You’re hiding things in there. People expect a budget bill to be just about that; about numbers, about what’s going to be spent or not spent in the economy. That is what you’re expecting to see. They’re using the old American method of having a bill where you tack on hundreds of riders, you know, pork barrel things that have nothing to do with the budget but everything to do with their right wing agenda.
Tom Clark:
Let’s go to something else that the Conservatives have been saying over the summer, and they’ve been saying, don’t vote for Tom Mulcair because if you do because he’s going to bring in a carbon tax. Now, I’ve gone through your campaign literature. I’ve found it difficult to find the expression, carbon tax, but let’s clear this up, are you in favour of a carbon tax?
Thomas Mulcair:
You know that is an ethical issue that Stephen Harper is going to have to deal with because he knows that his MP’s are lying when they say that. In 2008, Stephen Harper ran on a campaign platform that included a cap and trade system. What I’ve talked about during the leadership and what the NDP talks about, is the very same cap and trade system that the Conservatives talked about. We went against, and this was quite controversial at the time, we went against the Liberal plan for a carbon tax in 2008. We thought it hurt families a great deal, that it was regressive in many regards and as an environmentalist, I can tell you, you can’t guarantee a reduction in greenhouse gases with a carbon tax so we were against it. Stephen Harper knows everything about policy. He was in the ’08 campaign. He knows that that’s our position and it’s the same as this. MacLean’s Magazine has done a great job of debunking that every time but at some point, the old saw you know that…remember Mark Twain’s expression that a lie will be halfway around the world before the truth can get it’s shoes on. I mean the big lie is a technique out of the 50’s. It’s not something that’s dignified and Stephen Harper, if he has an ounce of ethics on these things will call his MP’s to account and tell them to stop lying.
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Tom Clark:
I want to move on to Quebec because we don’t have much time left, but it is obviously a big issue. Pauline Marois, the new Quebec premier, has said that she’s got a laundry list of things, more powers that she wants to come to Quebec. There are reports that Nycole Turmel, your deputy, has said that the NDP has yet to establish a position on whether Employment Insurance should be given back to Quebec and presumably the other provinces, but are we at the point where we have to think of remaking the federation. Should we, and let me focus the question here, would you be afraid of re-opening the constitution if it meant rebalancing the federation?
Thomas Mulcair:
I think that re-opening the Constitution when we look at the disaster that was Meech and Charlottetown, is the last thing we should be thinking of. We, in the NDP have put a certain number of things on the table; French and the federally regulated workplace in Quebec doesn’t take anything away from anybody else, would give you the right to request the written instructions from your employer in French, which has existed for all Quebec companies, except federally regulated ones so why should a credit union have the right and not somebody who works in a chartered bank. That’s easy to fix. On the EI, you have to look at your priorities as a nation. I think that inter-provincial mobility is a good thing. I wouldn’t want to see that reduced. Can we have a better marriage between the needs in terms of training, formation, manpower and what’s there in the market to reduce unemployment? You know, I met with people in Windsor who are working on these issues, they say you lose your unemployment insurance if you’re taking too many courses. That’s not smart. We should be doing that better. So talk about how you can improve it but don’t start throwing overboard programs that work well across Canada.
Tom Clark:
In the 10 seconds I’ve got left, and I’m sorry to do this to you, EI, do you think it should be given to Quebec?
Thomas Mulcair:
I think that any province that wants to improve EI should be able to put their case on the table. You don’t decide that in advance. You look at it carefully as a good public administrator and you come to the right decision.
Tom Clark:
Thomas Mulcair, leader of the NDP, leader of the official Opposition, thank you very much for being here this morning, I appreciate it.
Thomas Mulcair:
Thanks Tom.
Tom Clark:
Well, coming up on The West Block, does a good economy mean bad politics? And we’re not waiting; we’ll kick off the leadership race right here. The Baker-Lee Debates are back for another season, right after this.
Break
Tom Clark:
Welcome back to The West Block. Well it is time to bring back the Baker-Lee debates for the second season of The West Block, which means we re-introduce you to a couple of old friends: in the red corner to my left, Senator George Baker and in the blue corner to my right, Professor Ian Lee from the Sprott School of Business at Carleton University. Welcome back to you both.
Ian Lee:
A pleasure to be back.
George Baker:
Thank you.
Tom Clark:
Let us kick off this political season with a question about the economy because it seems to dominate everything. And here’s the question I put to the table, when the economy is the issue and when the government says that it’s brand is the economy, and when the economy is doing relatively well in comparison to the other G8 nations, how then as an opposition, do you make any impact?
George Baker:
Well let me count the ways, today we have the corrections officers picketing the Prime Minister’s constituency office in Calgary; 500 of them. You know it’s unsafe and our prisons are overcrowded. You know 14 percent of the adult population in this country now have criminal records so there are serious problems in the criminal justice system. And we have people now as of July the first; Dr. Lee who can’t even get a house mortgage as they normally could because the minister of finance has changed the rules. If that weren’t enough, you’re right that we’re the top of the G7 or close to it, but here we have a government that just cut back on health care. Imagine an aging population and you cut back on monies to hospitals and to the payment of nurses and so on. If that weren’t enough, the Prime Minister goes to Switzerland and announces to the world leaders, our economy is doing so well he’s going to cut out the old age pensions for two years. So there’s a smorgasbord, there’s a smattering, there’s a plethora of issues to bring up to the government in the House of Commons but I think after listening to Mr. Mulcair on this program a moment ago, that the real issue is going to be in the scrum outside the House of Commons in that Mr. Mulcair is going to have to answer to the unanimous resolutions of the National Assembly in Quebec who are demanding more rights and power for Quebec.
Tom Clark:
And what you’re talking about was Mr. Mulcair on this program a few minutes ago, saying that he favoured the idea of French language…
George Baker:
Imposition in the federal…
Tom Clark:
…imposition in the workplace. Ian what do you think?
Ian Lee:
Well let me come back to Senator Baker’s opening comment, I mean what he’s really showing is the dilemmas facing the two opposition parties. You know, yes you have to break some eggs to make an omelette. There’s no doubt about it. And so there’s going to be some people with some ruffled feathers because we are no longer in the old paradigm in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s. I mean what Senator Baker reminds me of is that song from then 60’s that sang, those were the days my friend. Well those days are gone. We’re in this new era where the power is transferring from the western countries to Asia-Pacific. And because of this transformation along with the boomers and along with deficits, the government has to prudently respond to these unsustainable patterns from the past. The policies that your party developed quite frankly, you know open-ended health care, open-ended old age pensions and so forth. And so this is creating a lot of pushback, understandably so, but that’s precisely why our country is doing much better than Europe and the United States which have been kicking those problems down the road which is what you and the NDP are advocating. You’re saying kick them down the road, don’t address them. Let somebody else handle those problems. So that’s really explaining the dilemma that they face and I think Senator Baker has captured that dilemma very nicely in his opening comments.
Senator George Baker:
Now you didn’t answer his question regarding Mr. Mulcair but I would say this about Mr. Mulcair’s statements, we are facing a situation in which our Prime Minister brought in the resolution that Quebec is a nation. The only party that unanimously supported that in the House of Commons was the NDP hugging and kissing and crying saying Quebec is now a nation. Then supporting the Prime Minister in another action to create a seat for Quebec at the United Nations Organization, making decisions that they can…actually the Quebec representative negative with the Canadian representative is put in on behalf of the people of Quebec. And you’ve got the NDP pushing all of that and their Bill 455, which you recall they introduced into the House of Commons which will do what Mr. Mulcair said on this program a few moments ago and that is to import Bill 101 in Quebec into the federal institutions in Quebec which means French alone in airports and so on. So, the action in this Parliament, yes the government will be put on the spot but the Prime Minister has put us on the spot with his actions; going take place in the scrums, it’s the NDP who are going to be on the spot with the government of Canada.
Ian Lee:
If I can just flip Senator Baker on this point, what he’s really describing, and very eloquently I should point out, the problems that the NDP faces because the NDP is essentially now in a ménage-a-trois. They’re…the NDP is married to English Canada and now they have a Quebec lover. And the Quebec lover is saying come on over and leave your wife. Come with us and support these Quebec-only policies, Quebec-first policies and I think that the Conservatives are going to, at some point in the next two or three years, are going to put the NDP on the spot where they’re going to have to declare, are they supporting…are they with Canada? Are they going to remain with their wife or are they going to go with the lover? And that’s when the Quebec people are going to find out that the lover has been jilted and they will desert the NDP just as they deserted the Trudeau liberals; your party in the 70’s and 80’s as they deserted the Mulroney Conservatives in the 90’s and deserted the Bloc Quebecois and then this will lead…provide an opening for your party to maybe come back from the miserable condition and state that it’s in.
Tom Clark:
Well speaking of jilted lovers, that brings me to the Liberal leadership campaign and of course I was thinking of maybe previous Liberal leaders. George, there is a feeling out there that if Justin Trudeau runs, Justin Trudeau will win and that Justin Trudeau may be the saviour of the Liberal party. You have an extraordinary amount of influence in that party, are you going to support Justin Trudeau and where does this stand?
George Baker:
Well, excellent question. Let me be perfectly honest. I believe that Justin Trudeau should run in this leadership campaign. I also think that Dominic Leblanc should run in this election campaign. I would like to see Belinda Stronach enter the campaign but I’m going put forward a name now that will give Thomas Mulcair and the premier of Quebec heartburn or indigestion so they better take their Alka-Seltzer now before I give the name. I would suggest that Jean Charest run in this leadership campaign. Now Dr. Lee is going to say, oh yeah, but he was defeated, he’s a loser but a loser by how much? By less than 1 percentage point, he’s led the province of Quebec for the past decade so come on, Jean Charest and join the fray.
Ian Lee:
Senator Baker has very eloquently skated over the problem in the Liberal party. They have had a civil war. For a hundred years you were a very big happy family. You’re Red Liberals and Blue Liberals, Social Liberals, and Business Liberals. And then about five, six years ago, starting under Stéphane Dion, what happened was the older brother in this Liberal family, called the Red Liberal started to bully and beat up on the Business Liberals and eventually you kicked him out of the House and where did they go? In May 2011, they walked on mass down to the open welcoming arms of the Conservative party, driving the Conservatives from 38 percent to 40 percent in the last 72 hours of the election which gave Harper his majority, which is why nobody should give full credit to Harper. They should give co-equal credit to Stéphane Dion and Michael Ignatieff. You have to, you the Red Liberals, have to crawl on your belly back and bring those Blue Liberals back and rebuild your party as a collation of Blue and Red Liberals so that you are there when the NDP collapse when their Quebec lover deserts them.
George Baker:
Dr. Lee, if something doesn’t happen, if a law is not changed to stop the advertising from the money bags of the Conservative party of character assassinations in between election campaigns, you know that’s happening in Canada today that happened to the very people that you named Michael Ignatieff and Stéphane Dion and started to happen with Bob Rae; character assassinations between elections. We need a law in Canada to stop that. We have it in the Elections Act, Section 91. It should be applied in between the election campaigns because if it’s not, then perhaps we’re going to have the present Prime Minister for the next 30 years.
Tom Clark:
There also should be a law that extends this segment but we’re out of time. George Baker, Ian Lee, great to have the Baker-Lee Debates back again. Great work.
Well, coming up on The West Block, a refresher course on how it all went down last season.
Break
Tom Clark
Welcome back, as MP’s get back to work we’d like to take you on a trip down memory lane. What happened last year and what clues does it give us for the year ahead?
Here’s your weekly West Block Primer:
Parliament ended the year on a bit of a sour note with the Opposition so enraged by the Omnibus Budget Bill that they forced a 22-hour voting marathon and by the end there simply wasn’t much to say. But it did produce some blog news…
Nathan Cullen:
Of course there are some light moments, right where you’re just…you’re conversing with…you know John Baird is a funny guy from time to time. He lent Libby Davies a sash at one point and a tiara.
[Rewind] What was that?
Nathan Cullen:
He lent Libby Davies at sash at one point and a tiara.
Tom Clark:
Another mega bill is almost a certainty for this fall’s budget so MP’s might want to keep those sleeping bags handy.
Remember the “Thrilla on the Hilla”, the pugilist from Papineau versus the “Brazman”. Justin Trudeau thumped Conservative Senator Patrick Brazeau and shot to the top of the “Who will be the next Liberal leader list.” Now here’s just a sample of what we may hear in the weeks ahead, Trudeau endorsing that other guy, Trudeau.
Justin Trudeau:
The question is not, why does Justin Trudeau suddenly not love his country because the question is ridiculous. Canadians should be outraged. Canadians shouldn’t be asking, ooh does Justin Trudeau actually want to separate? Of course not! But will Justin Trudeau fight with his very last breath to make sure that this Canada stays the Canada that we collectively know what it can be? Absolutely. Merci!
Tom Clark:
The leadership race officially kicks off in November.
Last year’s election campaign saw MP’s promising the return of decorum but that went up in flames by the time they got back to Ottawa.
Andrew Scheer:
It’s far too noisy…order… shhh!
Tom Clark:
And it sent some members a little bit over the top.
Pat Martin:
Folklore has it that the Canadian beaver will bite off its own testicles when it’s threatened and offer them up to its tormentors.
Stephen Harper
I just hope the member from Winnipeg that his bark is not as bad as his bite.
Tom Clark:
You can count on seeing more of that when MP’s get back tomorrow but some moments were unforgettable and for a much better reason. Touching moments like this one…
Mike Lake:
Mr. Speaker today is World Autism Awareness Day. It also marks 14 years since my son Jayden was diagnosed with autism. Mr. Speaker, I never dreamt I’d have a son with special needs but I can honestly say I couldn’t be more proud of my boy. He is always quick with a high-five or a kiss, is never ever a bully and loves everyone without a hint of judgement. I think we could all use a little more of that.
Tom Clark:
Let’s hope we do hear a lot more of that.
Well for more from last year’s Parliament be sure to check out our extended highlight reel at TheWestBlock.ca.
Well last week, we broke the story about the group that wants to rebuild the Avro Arrow as an alternative to the troubled F-35. The idea has been rejected by the government but that didn’t silence you. As a reminder, here’s what retired Major-General Lewis MacKenzie had to say about the Arrow:
(Retired) Major-General Lewis MacKenzie:
The basic design and platform still today exceeds anything that’s on the books or anything that’s flying by way of a fighter, easily more than the F-35.
Tom Clark:
Well after that, your feedback came flying in and the reaction was somewhat mixed. On Twitter, @Albertaardvark said this, “When nostalgia overtakes reality = nutty idea…”. On our Facebook page, Kevin Plemel disagrees, he says, “Given the ever-increasing costs of US and European aircraft, I do think that now is the time to try growing Canada’s capabilities.” But Keith Rowe says, “Regretfully, I have to agree with those who say this is a no-go. You don’t just push a button, wait 10 years and have a plane pop out at the other end.” And on Twitter, Andrew Durman writes this, “It is time we take the lead instead of being led. Rebuild the Arrow show the world. We need hi-tech jobs and manufacturing.”
And this issue probably isn’t dead because later this week, the official Opposition of Canada will be meeting with the group wanting to bring back the Avro Arrow.
Now we read all of your feedback, whether it comes via e-mail, Facebook or Twitter; our addresses are all listed here, please use them. We do appreciate hearing from you and we will be putting some of your comments on the air.
Well that is our show for this week and as we leave, we leave you with the memory of a political legend. One of the most universally admired politicians of our time: Peter Lougheed 1928 -2012; we were lucky to have him. See you next Sunday.
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