Ottawa – Questions and accusations about who knew what and when about the costs of the F-35 fighter jets flew across the aisles of the House of Commons during question period this week.
The war of words comes after top bureaucrats from National Defence and Parliamentary Budget Officer Kevin Page appeared before the public accounts committee.
The committee is studying the major military procurement after Auditor General Michael Ferguson in his maiden report found a $10 billion discrepancy between the government’s public and internal estimates on buying into the F-35 fighter jet program. After Page pegged the costs at $30 billion, DND put out a public figure of $14.7 billion. But internal estimates showed the costs to be closer to $25 billion over 20 years.
Politicians from both sides of the aisles seemed to have very different interpretations about what the witnesses told the committee.
On whether cabinet knew the $25 billion figure:
NDP MP Megan Leslie (Thursday, May 3): “The deputy minister of National Defence said today that he provided the full costing of the F-35s to the Minister of National Defence, the full $25 billion.”
NDP MP Megan Leslie (Thursday, May 3): “The deputy minister of National Defence said today that he provided the full costing of the F-35s to the Minister of National Defence, the full $25 billion.”
Prime Minister Stephen Harper in response: “Mr. Speaker the deputy minister made it quite clear. If the member were actually reading the deputy minister’s testimony she would see that the deputy minister made it clear that the information was presented in the way that it has always been presented over many decades, long before this government came to office.”
NDP MP Matthew Kellway (Thursday, May 3): “Today, when the PBO was asked if the government was seeking to mislead Canadians about the real cost of the F-35s, he gave a clear and simple answer, yes. Is there any minister on that side of the House who is honest enough to stand and take responsibility?”
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On whether Page received adequate information from DND:
Defence Minister Peter MacKay in response: “Mr. Speaker, let us listen to what the professional public service had to say about that. Deputy Minister Fonberg, in responding to committee this morning about this issue of reporting and numbers given to the PBO, said the following, “To the best of my knowledge we fully responded to the PBO’s request”. He went on to say, “I don’t believe he raised issues with us on a substantive nature of the response, so I’m not sure what conclusions he”, the PBO, “was drawing”.
On whether other jets were being considered:
Liberal MP Marc Garneau (Thursday, May 3) : “On the other hand, last Tuesday, Lieutenant-General Deschamps, Commander of the Royal Canadian Air Force, told us that only one jet had been considered: the F-35 of course….will there be an open and transparent bidding process?”
Harper in response: “Mr. Speaker, in response to the Auditor General’s report, the government has announced that it will take a number of steps before proceeding. We intend to examine all these facts and options before continuing with the process. We have been clear about that.”
On the deputy minister of DND’s comments about the AG report:
Liberal interim leader Bob Rae (Tuesday, May 1): “Mr. Speaker, another amazing contradiction was revealed today in the public accounts committee when the deputy minister of National Defence said that the Auditor General “got it wrong” when the Auditor General discussed budgetary matters in front a committee last week.”
Harper in response: “Mr. Speaker, once again that is a complete miscategorization of the deputy minister’s remarks. The government has been very clear that it accepts the report…”
Here’s what the witnesses actually said about what National Defence and cabinet ministers knew about the costs of the jet and when they knew it.
On whether cabinet knew the $25 billion figure:
Fonberg (Tuesday, May 1): “When the decision documents were prepared for cabinet in 2010, we sought $9 billion for acquisition, $5.7 billion for in service support over 20 years and we indicated that we expected the operating costs over 20 years to be roughly the same as the CF-18 fleet…We said we thought the operating costs would be $10-billion over 20 years.”
When asked by NDP Malcolm Allen if the minister and cabinet knew the $25-billion figure, Fonberg said (Tuesday, May 1): “Yes.”
Fonberg on why there was two numbers (Tuesday, May 1): “One is acquisition and sustainment which is the way that we’ve reported on each of our acquisitions over the last four major airframe assets, and the other one includes operating costs which we haven’t reported on publicly because it’s included in the base budget of the Department of National Defence.”
Parliamentary Budget Officer Kevin Page: “Yes,” he said in response to a reporter who asked if he believe the government withheld information to keep the full costs from Canadians.
On whether other jets were being considered:
Lieutenant-General André Deschamps (Tuesday, May 1): “The bottom line is that tomorrow’s operating environment will require stealth, the ability to sense and process vast quantities of information in a very short time and to be able to operate with others, starting with our closest allies, anywhere around the globe. Based on our analysis and my responsibilities as commander of the RCAF, I recommended the only aircraft available that could effectively deliver operational success and optimize the safety of our crews.”
“Currently, from an air force perspective, we are focused on delivering a transition to the F-35.”
On the deputy minister of DND’s comments about the AG report:
“We actually tried to clarify with the Auditor General in 2008, 2009. We never had such an estimate. You’d have to ask him where he got that number.”
Fonberg on Ferguson’s testimony (Tuesday, May 1): “Not in his report, but my understanding from his testimony last week is he got it wrong on the 2008 issue of the $25 billion.”
On whether Page received adequate information from DND:
Page (Thursday, May 3): “Over the past few weeks, it has become clear that the Department of National Defence provided the PBO with figures that did not include all operating costs…The PBO understood that it had been provided with full life-cycle costs from DND as required.”
Fonberg (Thursday, May 3): “To the best of my knowledge we fully responded to the PBO’s request.”
DND Deputy Minister Robert Fonberg (Thursday, May 3) `”Our understanding at the time, and frankly it continues to be our understanding, not withstanding the comments of the PBO, is that operating costs were not included (in Page’s report).”
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