The West Block – Episode 7, Season 13

THE WEST BLOCK

Episode 7, Season 13

Sunday, October 29, 2023

Host: Mercedes Stephenson

Guests:

Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers

Ehud Barak, Former Israeli Prime Minister

Location:

Ottawa, ON

Mercedes Stephenson: Global News has learned that Canadian Special Operations Forces are on the ground in Israel. Sources say that they are there to help with embassy security and liaise with the IDF. We’ll talk about that today on the show, as well as Israel’s new phase of operations in Gaza.

I’m Mercedes Stephenson, and The West Block begins now.

Israel’s defence forces have moved into Northern Gaza, launching attacks above and underground and unleashing hundreds of airstrikes.

We speak to the former head of the Canadian Special Operations Forces, who led a peacekeeping mission in the Sinai about the ground operations.

Plus, a candid conversation with former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak: why he says Israel must defeat Hamas, and why he says he still believe in a two-state solution.

Israel has escalated its offensive in Gaza. Israel knocked out communications on Friday, which are now starting to come back online. They’ve also unleashed the most powerful wave of airstrikes to date. Expanding into a ground operation as well that has been underway since Friday. As we are speaking, Israeli forces are fighting in Gaza right now.

In a televised address to Israeli’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warned that the war will not be short.

Mercedes Stephenson: Netanyahu said the war inside the Gaza Strip will be long and difficult, and we are ready for it. This is our second war for independence. We will fight for our native land.

For more on what this second phase of the war will look like, I’m joined by retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson. He was the force commander of the Multinational Force and Observers, a peacekeeping force based in Sinai, Egypt, during Israel’s last ground operation in Gaza, in 2014.

Thank you so much for joining us today, General Thompson.

Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: Good morning, Mercedes, my pleasure.

Mercedes Stephenson: You were the commander of Canadian Special Operations Forces, which we didn’t mention in your bio but it was a huge part of your career. Global News had learned this morning that the Canadian Special Ops, including the most elite and secretive unit among them, JTF 2, are in Israel, that they are helping with things like embassy security and liaising with the IDF. Can you tell our viewers a little bit more about what the Canadian Special Forces and JTF 2 would be doing in Israel?

Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: Sure, but just to be clear, Mercedes, I don’t have any inside baseball with respect to the current conflict. But typically, CANSOF, or the Canadian Special Operations Forces, deploys to crisis areas using what’s called an Immediate Response Task Force, so that they can draw the capabilities that they need from across the entire Canadian Special Operations Forces command, which includes JTF 2 and other units. And then they will—and because they’re on such a high state of readiness, they can get into the theatre rather quickly and conduct the tasks that they’ve been given by the commander of CANSOFCOM.

Mercedes Stephenson: And just so we’re clear with our viewers, we’re not implying that they are involved in going into Gaza in an offensive capability or anything else. This is a relatively common, as you mentioned, deployment, but interesting nonetheless. I’d imagine a number of other countries—I know the United States has said publicly that their special forces are there as well.

Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: Absolutely. I mean, we don’t know yet. I don’t think it’s been confirmed. There are still two Canadians missing, I believe. They could well be hostages, in which case they may be part of the hostage rescue planning. I don’t know that for certain. But this is typical to send—to send the Immediate Response Task Force to an area that’s in crisis, and that could be something as simple as protecting the embassy. It could be—they could be involved in assisting the Israeli’s with their planning. There’s certainly a close relationship between Canada Special Operations Forces and the Israeli Defence Forces. So, there’s nothing surprising here and it’s pretty much par for the course.

Mercedes Stephenson: General Thompson, we heard Benjamin Netanyahu say that this is the second war for independence for Israel in his view, and that it will be a long war. What do you interpret that to mean in terms of the military campaign?

Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: Well we’ve already seen it rollout. So first off, there were about three—if I recall correctly—three raids into the Gaza Strip that were meant to assist in gathering intelligence and reconnaissance, etc. And then they started a couple nights ago with the full on invasion of Gaza. And they’re doing it systematically. So what they did initially, early on before all of this, is they ordered the civilian population out, which is not exactly realistic, but they wanted Gaza City to be thinned out as much as possible and they sent them south of Wadi that crosses—that cuts the Gaza Strip in half. And then now they’re moving in and they will systematically isolate each individual neighbourhood. By isolate, I mean surround by armoured vehicles to make sure nothing gets in or out. And then they will clear it: buildings, ruins, and tunnels in a meticulous fashion, in an effort to kill all the Hamas fighters, to destroy any equipment and weapons that they find, and if they’re there, to rescue the one—some of the 229 hostages that Hamas has taken. But this is extremely complicated, and if you recall in 2017, they Iraqi assisted by the Americans took nine months to clear Mosul from—of the Isis fighters that were there—and they hadn’t had nearly the time that Hamas has had to prepare Gaza. I mean, they’ve been—they haven’t been inside of Gaza for nine years, since I was there in 2014. So it’s going to be a tough fight and there will be heavy casualties.

Mercedes Stephenson: You know, obviously, based on your experience about Hamas, how they operate, their capabilities. What do you anticipate the IDF is going to be facing?

Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: Obviously there’ll be tunnel warfare, which is—which is going to be difficult. But again, the Israeli’s after the 2014 conflict, have done an awful lot of work on tunnel warfare and created special units that are—that do exactly that and have created a training facility, which is apparently the largest in the world, to train soldiers in tunnel warfare. So, they will be prepared. But Hamas is—they’re on the home turf. Above ground, of course, they’ll be able to use their antitank guided weapons because they have quite a few, and they will use IEDs, etc. Sorry, improvised explosive devices, in order to disable and destroy Israeli armoured vehicles, which is why by the way, Israel, when you watch the video that they’re releasing, goes in with their heaviest armoured vehicles, including the Merkava 4 tank which is almost indestructible, has an active anti-armour system, which is called the Trophy system, to shoot down incoming missiles. But at the ranges we’re talking about here, in a closed in urban environment, it will be extremely tough for the Israeli’s. And the advantage will in some respects, be in Hamas’ side.

Mercedes Stephenson: How do you fight in a tunnel? I mean, that sounds like something out of a nightmare to me.

Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: One of the principle problems is of course, if the electricity is out and there’s no lighting, it’s totally dark. So if you think of a soldier in night vision goggles, he needs some light to make the image intensify or work inside of a night vision goggle. So if he doesn’t have that, then he has to turn on an IR floodlight, and just to have some form of light. But if the Hamas fighter on the other side also has goggles, because of course they’ve been given technology from Iran and others. Then he’ll see that light come on. So, you know, it’s close quarter combat that is extremely—extremely hazardous and you—you basically you have to proceed quite slowly. Now, you could use, which is something that a lot of special operations forces use, dogs. You send the dog in first and the dog has a camera strapped to its back, and he moves through the tunnel system and you watch the feed to see what the dog sees. But, you know, that’s feasible in say, a small compound like we had in Afghanistan, but it may not be so much so inside of a tunnel system. And knowing the Israeli’s they’re probably going to use a lot of technology, so very small micro UABs and possibly robots. But, you know, time will tell. I have confidence that the Israeli’s have given this problem a lot of thought and they will endeavour to clear these tunnels, as I mentioned, in a meticulous fashion and do what they can to save the hostages.

Mercedes Stephenson: That’s fascinating about the dogs and the robots in particular. I take it given how meticulously you’re describing them using almost this grid movement to clear and then move on, you’re not surprised there wasn’t sort of the mass invasion a lot of folks were expecting when we saw the tanks all lined up along the border. Do you think that was more of a psychological operation than an intent to go in with what looked like a D-Day level of force?

Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: Well, as you recall, they mobilized over 300 thousand soldiers. The last time they went in on Operation Protective Edge, they mobilized 75 thousand soldiers. So it’s, you know, do some quick math here—it’s a fourfold increase, I suppose, in the size of their force. But I’m not—I think they’re going to need all of those vehicles and all of those people because eventually, they have to hold what they clear. That’s always the problem in urban operations, is you can clear a building or clear a tunnel system, but then you need to post centuries, if you will, or put in place a mechanism to make sure that they’re not re-infiltrated. So eventually, those—some of those 300 thousand troops will—their task will be to hold the ground that is cleared by those tunnel experts I was talking about and the other infantry that are going to clear the rest of the urban area. So I don’t think it’s too many troops. No, they’re not all engaged right now because they’re going to do this, as I mentioned, neighbourhood by neighbourhood. It’ll take months to get this done.

Mercedes Stephenson: We have just under a minute left, but I wanted to ask you about the American presence in the region. It’s clearly been ramping up. How do you interpret that?

Mercedes Stephenson: Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, thank you so much for joining us today, sir.

Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: My pleasure. Thank you, Mercedes.

Mercedes Stephenson: Up next, my conversation with former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak about the war and why he still believes in a two-state solution.

Mercedes Stephenson: Benjamin Netanyahu says Israel is fighting its second war of independence, and the goal is to eliminate Hamas. How that happens is unfolding right now in Gaza, against the backdrop of a growing chorus of calls for a humanitarian pause to help Palestinian civilians who are trapped in Gaza as Israeli airstrikes rain down.

Former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak is no fan of Netanyahu’s, but he’s united in his mission to defeat Hamas. Barak is one of Israeli’s most decorated soldiers, a former defence minister and head of the Israel Defence Force. I spoke to him on Friday before Israel had launched its second phase.

Mr. Barak, thank you for joining us. Obviously a very complicated and fluid situation in Israel. What are the factors informing the Israeli government and Israeli military’s decisions on how to proceed with the offence in Gaza?

Mercedes Stephenson: On the hostages, Hamas has said that they will not release them unless there is a ceasefire. Do you think that there is any possibility of that?

Mercedes Stephenson: One of the things that Israel has to think about here is the future of Gaza. And I’ve read your opinion and the opinion of other experts, saying that the Palestinian authority no longer has the credibility or perhaps even the ability to be able to govern in Gaza. So what do you imagine this looks like? Everybody knows the Israeli military is very powerful and it could dismantle the military capabilities of Hamas, but dealing with the ideology is another issue, and then dealing with the fallout which Israel will own for who governs once it’s no longer Hamas.

Mercedes Stephenson: Do you believe a two-state solution is still possible?

Mercedes Stephenson: The U.S. struck a couple sites in Syria after attacks on American soldiers, and a lot of analysts are saying that indicates the U.S. is showing they are willing to engage, they’re serious. There’s concern about this spreading to the United States or to Iran, and of course, Iran backs Hezbollah and Hamas. What is your sense of whether Iran is interested in a broader regional war or containing this and keeping it limited?

Mercedes Stephenson: Former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak. Thank you so much for joining us today, sir.

Ehud Barak, Former Israeli Prime Minister: Thank you.

Mercedes Stephenson: Up next, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau does a backflip on his carbon tax policy, but only for some Canadians.

Mercedes Stephenson: Now for one last thing.

The crisis in the Middle East has captivated the world, and while Canadians are fortunate to live in peace and security, events on the ground in Israel and Gaza have not put a pause on politics here.

This week, the prime minister blinked on his signature carbon tax, but only for some Canadians: those who use home heating oil, which is mostly used in Atlantic Canada.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau: “That is why today we are announcing a three-year pause on the federal pollution price on heating oil so that we can give everyone the time and ability to switch to heat pumps.”

Mercedes Stephenson: Canadians who use natural gas to keep warm in the winter, though, are out of luck. The carbon pricing pivot comes after months of the Liberal government defending the carbon tax as necessary for the environment, despite the affordability crisis. The change in course could be interpreted as the government thinking on its feet to respond to changing events or a more cynical lens of pandering to votes as the government is dunked in the polls. What is no doubt a welcome move for Atlantic Canadians could become a political liability for the prime minister, though, if the policy is not equally applied across the country.

That’s our show for today. We’ll see you next Sunday.