Transcript: Episode 3 Sept. 22

THE WEST BLOCK

Episode 3, Season 3

Sunday, September 22, 2013

Host: Tom Clark

Guests: Chris Alexander, T om Mulcair, Lt.-Gen. (Ret.) General Andrew Leslie

Feature: Chrystia Freeland, Linda McQuaig

Location: Ottawa

**Check against delivery**

Tom Clark:

Welcome to The West Block from the nation’s capital, on this Sunday, September the 22nd.  I’m Tom Clark.

Well on coming up on today’s show, terror in Kenya.  Two Canadians are among the 59 dead in Nairobi. Citizenship Minister Chris Alexander will be here.

And here at home, a coming byelection in Toronto is shaping up to be the battle of the opposition leaders and may preview what we’ll see in 2015.  NDP Leader Tom Mulcair will join us.

And from top soldier to top advisor, Andrew Leslie explains why he’s joining Justin Trudeau and the party blamed for the decade of darkness.

But first, the very latest on the terror attacks in Kenya this Sunday morning.  Terrorists are still holding an unknown number of hostages in a Nairobi mall.  As of this hour, at least 59 have been killed,  175 wounded, and among the dead two Canadians, one of them a diplomat.  The Al-Qaeda linked group, al-Shabab has taken responsibility for the attack on the East African country.  Al-Shabab controls much of Somalia and has been accused of terror attacks before in neighbouring Kenya.

Joining me now from Toronto is Citizenship and Immigration Minister Chris Alexander.  Minister thanks very much for being here.  Very quickly, what is the latest that you know at this hour?

Chris Alexander:

Well we still know that two Canadians have been killed in this attack Tom, one of whom we are confirming the identity, as the prime minister did last night, Annemarie Desloges, and we understand that three Canadians have been injured.  We are in touch with them.  We are in touch with their families and we’re providing assistance.

Tom Clark:

Do we know anything about the extent of their injuries?  Are they critical, serious?  Do we know?

Chris Alexander:

Can’t say anything about that at this time; one of those injured I think has been reported on the news was the husband of Annemarie Desloges. They were there in the shopping centre together but on the others we’ll have to wait for confirmation of the details.

Tom Clark:

And we don’t know the identity of the other Canadian but as you’ve said, we know it was Annemarie Desloges.  She worked at the High Commission in Nairobi.  It’s a particular blow of course for any family or organization to lose somebody but to lose one of our diplomats, somebody who is there representing all of us must be particularly painful this morning.

Chris Alexander:

Yeah, it’s a huge tragedy for us all as Canadians Tom, to lose someone from the family, from this family that represents us abroad.  Annemarie Desloges is from a Foreign Service family.  I know her father, Michel Desloges and she was serving us proudly, actually serving my department:  Citizenship and Immigration and on secondment to the Canadian Border Services Agency more recently in Nairobi.  So we are all deeply agrieved by her loss.  Our hearts go out to her family, to her friends, to her colleagues, and nothing will repair the gap that we now have in our lives and the lives of that tight knit community in Nairobi.

Tom Clark:

You know it brings up a question though minister and how do our diplomats who work in dangerous areas or areas that can become dangerous very quickly, how do they protect themselves against something like this or is it really a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Chris Alexander:

There is some of that but let’s be clear about this act.  It is an act of total cowardice, of barbarity by a group that set out to kill civilians who were shopping in a mall, and to kill them in large numbers. There has to be accountability for this kind attack.  We will not rest until we see those responsible for this attack punished and we will take strong actions to make sure our support for Kenyan authorities is thorough and continuing.  And we will also stop at nothing to make sure that our Canadian officials that serve us abroad and Canadians abroad are safe, that they have the best information about evolving security situations and that they have the best protection.

Tom Clark:

When you say that we want to punish those who are responsible for this heinous attack, we know that these are apparently members of al–Shabab which is a very dedicated, very vicious organization based in Somalia.  So to deliver justice to them, what does that exactly mean?  We know where they are, should we be going, as a world community, should we going after them where they live?

Chris Alexander:

Well we have been involved in efforts, global efforts against terrorism as you know for more than a decade Tom on a large scale.  The Royal Canadian Navy has had ships in the Indian Ocean, specifically focused on threats from Somalia, and we’ve been part of supporting UN missions, including security missions, military missions into Somalia to prevent these sorts of terrorists groups from running rampant there.  But yesterday’s attack shows that work needs to continue.  International cooperation is the only solution but it has to be focused on punishing and deterring those that would threaten our way of life that would take these sorts of atrocities into the peaceful neighbours of Nairobi and other cities of the world.  We have to be very, very deliberate.

Tom Clark:

Well, okay does deliberate mean then that we launch attacks on their positions in Somalia to let them know that they can’t get away with this?

Chris Alexander:

Well let’s be clear, the group that undertook this attack are apparently still at large.  Some of them still apparently holding hostages.  Kenyan authorities have the lead in resolving this situation.  All of us whose nationals have been victims and who are partners of Kenya on security issues generally will be offering every support, and we hope that this group is apprehended and punished on the spot.

Tom Clark:

Chris Alexander, Canada’s Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, a tough day for your department as we said right at the beginning but I appreciate your time this morning minister.  Thanks very much.

Chris Alexander:

Thanks Tom.  Thanks for this interview.

Tom Clark:
Well still to come, the battle of the opposition parties.  Tom Mulcair on his candidate in the Toronto Centre byelection.  Right after this…

Break

Tom Clark:

Welcome back.  Well there are four federal byelections waiting in the wings.  We don’t know when they’ll be called but already, all eyes are trained on the riding of Toronto Centre.  Now all parties are running there but the main match is the battle between the two leading opposition parties.

Two star candidates who on the surface seem a whole lot alike; both former journalists and authors; both focused on economic inequality.  But the solutions they offer couldn’t be more different.  In the red corner is Liberal candidate Chrystia Freeland who says that Canada needs to learn how to learn how to play the global game.

Chrystia Freeland:
The countries, the companies, the individuals who win in the 21^st century will be the ones who are the most creative, who come up with the best new ideas and manage to sell them, not only in their own community, not only even in their own country, but into the whole world.

Tom Clark:

And in the orange corner, Linda McQuaig who has called for higher taxes on the super-rich as a solution to growing inequality.

Linda McQuaig:

Tax cuts for the rich, social spending cuts, privatization, deregulation and a tax on labour.  We need a new set of economic policies to make this country equal and have opportunity again.

Tom Clark:

In a riding that has both the super-rich and the desperately poor, this election may be less about the candidates and more about the popularity of their leaders, Tom Mulcair and Justin Trudeau.

Joining me now in studio is the NDP leader Tom Mulcair.  Mr. Mulcair very good to have you here.

Tom Mulcair:

Good morning Tom.

Tom Clark:

Just before we get to the domestic issues and so on, we’ve got this unfolding tragedy in Kenya this morning; two Canadians dead.  What should our response be to this do you think?

Tom Mulcair:

Well first of all, here in Ottawa you meet so many people who know Annemarie Desloges who was a career civil servant in the Foreign Service and to everyone who has been close, her family, her loved ones our sincere condolences to begin with.  It’s a terrible tragedy; two Canadians killed.  To the people of Kenya as well who are suffering this.  This is an abhorrent terrorist attack.  We’ll find out more details in the coming days but for now our thoughts and prayers are with the families of the Canadians killed of course, we’ll be hearing a lot about, and to the people of Kenya and everyone else who has lost someone.

Tom Clark:

How do we deal with a group like al-Shabab?

Tom Mulcair:
You deal with them decisively and you deal with them conclusively, and you don’t leave any room for doubt about the resolve in dealing with this type of international terror.  And that’s one arm of Al-Qaeda.  There are others and we’ve just have to be straight up in dealing with them and say this is something that will be dealt with by all the countries of the world looking at what this represents.  It is an act of terror but it’s also part of an attempt to destabilize democracy in those countries where it still exists.  And Africa has been through more than enough thank you in terms of genocides and huge conflicts over the past decades, and if this is another attempt to destabilize those countries where democracy had been having a chance to reinstall itself then we’ve got to deal with it head on Tom.

Tom Clark

And does that mean, should we be going after them?  I mean we know that they operate in Somalia.  We know where they are.  Should we go after them?

Tom Mulcair:

These are big questions that were raised last year in Mali.  And Canada lent some material support at the request of the French government which did the heavy lifting in Mali.  And this is a case by case thing that Canada should be looking at but we have to understand that we’re no longer in conflicts where it’s rows of soldiers facing each other across the trench or in their respective vehicles.  One side is taking a completely different approach and we’ve got to be able to analyze that and deal with it for what it is.

Tom Clark:

Let’s come back domestically for a minute now, we were just taking a look at the lineup in Toronto Centre.  Again, we don’t know when that byelection is going to be but it’s going to be one of the more interesting ones I suspect.  One of the contradictions appears to be anyway that your candidate, Linda McQuaig is calling for, and has in the past written books about taxing the super-rich as a way to deal with the income inequality in this country.  You however, as the party leader, are not advocating that so when the voters of Toronto Centre are looking at that economic policy, are they following what Linda McQuaig is saying or what Tom Mulcair is saying?

Tom Mulcair:

I couldn’t be happier to have Linda McQuaig as a candidate in this election. I spent a couple of days with her in Toronto.  She’s brilliant, she’s articulate, she’s fun to be with and she’s bringing vitality and energy and enthusiasm and great ideas to the campaign.  It’s true that in the leadership race that I went through that was one of the issues on the table and as a very experienced public administrator, I always tell people that don’t assume that we’re going to continue doing all of the things that the Conservatives are now doing and that we’re going to add on what we want and that we have to tax people more.  There are choices that have to be made in public administration so we don’t have to do things the same way as the Conservative and I do believe yes, that in Canada with a combined rate of 50 percent in many provinces and very few tax breaks that Canadians get.  We actually pay close to that 50 percent, unlike the Americans who have tons of tax breaks that that’s enough that beyond that for personal income tax that’s enough.

Tom Clark:

But Linda McQuaig is saying you should…

Tom Mulcair;

Well what she just said in the clip that you saw, she’s talking about corporate tax rates, which is something that we are talking about.  Stephen Harper has given 50 billion dollars a year tax cuts across the board to the richest corporations who are not the job creators, who don’t need that money.  So we would target the job creators the small, medium size businesses in Canada, they’re the ones who have a chance to create new jobs.  They’re the ones who should be given a break.  So yes, we would bring the Canadian corporate average to something closer to the American combined average.  Right now we’re way below.  We’re one of the lowest if not the lowest in the OACD right now for our corporate tax rates.  So that’s where we can make a change but with regard to individuals, that’s not something we’re going to be contemplating for the next campaign.  And that’s not just me. Jack Layton had the same approach in 2011 and 2008.

Tom Clark:

So you’ll tell Linda McQuaig, don’t tax the superrich which is what people say…

Tom Mulcair:

I’ll tell Linda McQuaig that she’s the most welcome new Member of Parliament when she wins in Toronto Centre and she’ll be right there in the front row with me.

Tom Clark:

Let me ask you something else Linda McQuaig is doing along with Paul Dewar, your Foreign Affairs critic and that is, getting this petition going to say that any Russian politician who has supported the anti-gay laws should be barred from entering this country.  Now barring people for their political beliefs is not something that any party is necessarily comfortable with but you’re now advocating it as a party.  How do we do that?  Walk me through the logistics of how we determine which Russian politician has been supporting these anti-gay laws and then how do you actually…we’re going to have to increase our intelligence network to do this, I would think.

Tom Mulcair:

The essence of diplomacy is not only to talk to people who agree with you but to be able to talk to people who disagree with you.  But right now in Russia, we’re living a unique situation with a country that’s about to hold the Olympics.  They’re propagating hatred against a class of persons, not for anything that they’ve done but for who they are.  So propagating hatred and bias and discrimination against people because of their sexual orientation in a country that we’re going to be dealing with face to face, I think that it is not on.  So we’re looking for creative ways of making sure that we mark that territory and we say, look we’re not going to pretend that this is not happening.  We’re not going to pretend that hatred against people because of their sexual orientation is acceptable.  And Paul has been looking for creative ways to do that and we’re going to encourage him to continue doing that.

Tom Mulcair:

Okay but then if you were the prime minister, you would bar Russian politicians who disagree with your point of view.  You would bar them from entering the country for their political beliefs.  How would you do that  I mean logistically, do we start sort of going through the Russian version of Hansard to find out who the bad guys are in your view and do we kick Russians out who are here right now who may espouse support for those anti-gay laws?

Tom Mulcair:

Ask the question another way, what if you had a country that was openly propagating hatred against a certain religion and they were calling for the elimination of these people, for them to be jailed or for them to be mistreated.  Would you then stand on Parliament Hill hand in hand with the politicians from the country propagating hatred against another religion, especially if it was a group that you knew we had a lot of representatives of in Canada say how can you do that?  Well there are no fewer gays proportionally in Russia than there are in any other country but they’ve just decided that it’s okay to hate them, to put them in jail, to beat them up and to ridicule them because they’re trying to protect children from propaganda.  So that’s not going to work and we think that Canada should be standing up four square.  We haven’t seen much action from the Harper Conservatives on this.

Tom Clark:

I’m going to have to leave it there.  NDP Leader Tom Mulcair thanks very much for being here this morning.

Tom Mulcair:

Sure.

Tom Clark:

I appreciate your time.

Well still to come, the newest member of Justin Trudeau’s entourage.  Why former Army Commander Andrew Leslie is joining the red team.  Right after this.

Break

Tom Clark:

Welcome back.  Well on Wednesday of last week, Justin Trudeau scored a major political coup.  He enticed retired General Andrew Leslie, the former Commander of the Canadian Army to be his top advisor on military and foreign affairs.  While in uniform, Leslie was tasked with reshaping the Armed Forces from its war footing in Afghanistan to a more peaceful role at home.  He served with distinction for more than 30 years.

General Leslie welcome to The West Block.  Good to have you here.  You know, Rick Hillier, former Chief of the Defence Staff famously said that under the Liberal government there was a decade of darkness for the Armed Forces.  You were in a senior command position during that decade and yet you’ve joined the “red team,” the very people who brought in this decade of darkness, why?

General Andrew Leslie:

(Laughing) Thank you for that Tom.  It was grim times there’s no doubt about it.  A variety of actions were taken which saw the defence budget reduced, however, let’s not forget that just towards the end of his tenure, Prime Minister Martin increased the defence budget by $12.7 billion.  Now to be fair and balanced, Stephen Harper, when he took power, not only kept that increase but increased it even further, mainly to sustain the efforts in Afghanistan, but the Liberals, like the Conservatives, have responded to a variety of external pressures on resource management and I’ve joined the Liberals because I’ve been inspired by Justin’s leadership. I’ve had lengthy discussions with him and I’m completely compatible with his vision for the country, and there is a trigger point.  And while the discussions were ongoing, where I was getting to know him better, he stood up without checking on opinion polls or manipulation or spin and he said the draft Quebec Charter is bad for Quebec.  It’s not who Quebecers are.  It’s bad for Canada.  It’s not who Canadians are and it’s divisive. That moment I said, that’s the leader I’m going to follow.

Tom Clark:

And yet general, you could have done anything after your very storied career in the Armed Forces…very distinguished career in the Armed Forces.  You could have gone off like a lot of ex-generals did and made yourself millions and billions of dollars, why this?  Why public service?

General Andrew Leslie:

Because I like trying to help people.  I like trying to help shape those who are shaping the future of our nation and I’m looking for the leadership and the vision and the inclusion and the transparency that I want my candidate to be.  And that’s where I found it with the Liberals

Tom Clark:

But you know the Conservatives have made the military part of the Conservative brand.  They’re the ones standing up it, cheering on, having victory parades and all that sort of thing and yet you didn’t go to the blue team you went to the red team.  So what is it that you saw of what the Conservatives were doing with the Armed Forces that said I’m going to oppose that.

General Andrew Leslie:

I’ve been agnostic politically my entire career and by the way, that’s the way you want your serving generals to be.  It wasn’t until a very, very short while ago that I joined a political party, the Liberals. The reason why I chose the Liberals is, once again to be fair in balanced, yes; the Conservatives did a great job in re-equipping the army and a variety of other branches in the initial stages of their mandate.  But over the last two, three, four years, in terms of the budget reductions— by the way, I’m not arguing against the budget reductions, I’m arguing against how they’ve happened. Instead of reducing overhead they’re reducing teeth.  Instead of getting on with the…

Tom Clark:

And teeth, just so people understand, you’re talking about the pointy end the stick, the fighting end of the Armed Forces.

General Andrew Leslie,

Absolutely. And the tail has grown by 40 per cent, the teeth have only grown by 10.  Equipment procurement issues are lagging.  There’s a variety of increases in spending on consultants and contractors instead of giving a lot of those jobs to public servants.  So, it’s mismanagement of a vital national institution which is of increasing concern to me and I don’t see any change. And by the way, the Conservatives have had possession of the puck for eight years.  They’ve been in a power play situation for three, so get it done.  And it’s not happening.

Tom Clark:

Let me take you into the areas that you’re going to be advising Justin Trudeau, the man who wants to be the next prime minister of this country.  And let’s look at them individually. Afghanistan, you were there.  You commanded ISAF at one point.  You’ve been involved in shooting in anger in Afghanistan as they say.  When you look back on it, was Afghanistan worth it and did we leave too early?

General Andrew Leslie:

Afghanistan was worth it because we didn’t lose and it’s very tough for some folk who haven’t been there to understand.  And as the deputy commander of ISAF, as the commander of Task Force Cabot, I had the pleasure and the honour of working with thousands of Canadians.  And as the army commander, helping train and send them overseas and going to check them out.  It was worth it because it was the right thing to do.  Having said that, there does come a time where we’ve got to let the Afghans stand on their own two feet.  And it’s not a clean break.

Tom Clark:

Or fall…

General Andrew Leslie:

And there’s always that chance.  And the sweep of history has shown that foreign forces, even if they have relatively benign intentions— and of course NATO’s are absolutely benign— there does come a time when having foreign troops there can act as a unifying element for those who might wish to throw them out.  And it is time.  The Afghan Army has grown to a significant mass where they have to try and go it alone.  But they’re not going alone being cut off from funding and from a variety of levels of support.  We’ll have been in there for close to 12 or 13 years when we finally shut the gates and have a suitable celebration on Parliament Hill for all the sacrifice.

Tom Clark:

Well I want to ask you about that because the government spent a lot of money having a victory celebration for the Libyan mission. Do you think there should be a victory parade here in Ottawa when the last Canadian boots leave the ground in Afghanistan?

General Andrew Leslie:

I agree with the current government’s desire to wait until all the troops are home before you have some sort of celebratory activities.  Not necessarily a celebration of war but to celebrate those who have chosen to serve.  The regulars and the reservists, who stood up, answered the call to duty and went overseas to try and help protect the weak and the innocent.  So yes, I firmly believe there should be some sort of activity here in Ottawa.

Tom Clark:

Like what though a victory parade?  Should it be a….

General Andrew Leslie:

A ceremony, they will have a very somber edge to it and it should to respect those who have died and those who are grievously injured by the way, that’s another issue which I’ve grown a little bit irritated with towards the current government, and that is their treatment of the veterans.  I’m not convinced that they’re doing all that they should be doing to give those wounded soldiers and those who are suffering from post-traumatic stress, the dues and support that they need.  It is a sacred duty of any nation to actually support their veterans.

Tom Clark:

And on that note I’m going to bring it to an end with congratulations for learning the first political rule and that is pivot onto your talking points before you leave the interview, which you have done successfully.

General Andrew Leslie:

Thank you sir.

Tom Clark:

General Leslie awfully good talking to you.  Thanks very much.

General Andrew Leslie:

You’re more than welcome.

Tom Clark:

Well that’s a wrap for today.  Remember we want you to be a part of this show.  Send us your questions about the goings on in Ottawa about anything.  We’ll try and find the answers for you, put it on the show.  Now all the ways to get in touch are on your screen.  We’ll take your questions no matter who you sent them via Twitter, Facebook or email.  I’m Tom Clark.  Thanks very much for being with us.  We’ll see you next Sunday.  Have a great week.