THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 32, Season 2
Sunday, April 14, 2013
Host: Tom Clark
Guests: Tom Mulcair, Allan Bonner, Barry McLoughlin, Paddy Daly
Location: Ottawa
Tom Clark:
Welcome to The West Block from the nation’s capital, on this Sunday, April the 14th. I’m Tom Clark.
Coming up on today’s show, Tom Mulcair tries on a new look. Will a softer, friendlier approach and a change in political tone help boost his numbers? The NDP leader joins us in just a few minutes.
And competing pitches, the Liberals and the NDP want your attention this weekend; some thoughts from two political marketers.
Plus political hardball in the Labrador byelection; we go to the rock to find out how that’s playing.
But first, the NDP is billing its Montreal policy convention this weekend as a turning point on the road to the 2015 election. What that means is turning the party towards the centre to make it more electable. It also means reintroducing Tom Mulcair in a softer, warmer light. I sat down with the NDP leader at the convention in Montreal yesterday and here’s that interview:
Tom Mulcair Interview
Joining me now, leader of the official Opposition, leader of the NDP, Tom Mulcair. Mr. Mulcair good to have you on the program.
Tom Mulcair:
Nice to see you again Tom.
Tom Clark:
You know, a lot of people in the party are looking at this convention and saying that this is a turning point for the NDP on the road to the election in 2015. And at least part of that turning point is removing some of that language and preamble to your constitution that sort or refers back to more sort of socialist days. Do you really care one way or another whether that’s taken out?
Tom Mulcair:
I think it’s important to send a clear signal to Canadians that we’re reaching out beyond our traditional base. I’m still going to always consider myself and everyone in this room, a social democrat which means that we make it a priority to remove inequalities in our society, seek prosperity but seek prosperity for everyone. But yeah, some of the language in there really dated back from another era. Jack started that work two years ago in Vancouver and I’m able to complete it with some great people who are helping us right now. We think that that’s important.
Tom Clark:
Yeah because he had trouble getting that through, didn’t he?
Tom Mulcair:
Yeah, and it was resolved that we would give it to a team of people to draft something and it was modernized. People like Alexa McDonough, Brian Topp who had been one of my adversaries; the campaign is still very strong in the party. And a great guy named Bill Blaikie who is a parliamentarian everyone respected and they put together something that didn’t renounce any of our roots but really was far more attractive and far more modern. You know we talked about removing social inequalities, one of the biggest inequalities today is between generations and we’re going to talk a lot about sustainable development between now and the next campaign.
Tom Clark:
Let me bring up something just because it’s been on the table for a few days now, and it was an old blog post from of your MP’s, Alexandre Boulerice, who criticized Canada’s contribution in World War I. What was your reaction to that? What did you think?
Tom Mulcair:
Well don’t forget, this is something he had written years and years ago and he apologized for it this week. I had put out, as I do every year, a statement on Vimy because I do think it as a defining moment for Canada as a nation. But the idea of saying that war is a terrible thing and the people go to slaughter is not new. It’s an open question of debate but to the extent that anyone could have felt even slightly hurt by what was said, Alexandre has clearly apologized for that. And I think that the NDP has made it very clear, we’re very proud of our history but we’re also a party that’s going to continue to talk about the importance of working towards peace.
Tom Clark:
Let’s look ahead to 2015 in the next election. When you take a look at Stephen Harper, what is, if you had to identify one thing, his Achilles heel, what is it?
Tom Mulcair:
It’s going to surprise you because it’s not going to be an answer on the economy or on any other issue, it’s on institutions. It’s his failure to respect the parliamentary institutions, using closure constantly, using American tricks; you know, a budget bill this thick where he sneaks in 70 different changes that have nothing to do with the budget.
Tom Clark:
Do you think that has public traction though?
Tom Mulcair:
No but I think that it’s his Achilles heel because when you don’t respect institutions you show that you don’t respect the public. So voters are starting to get the signal from Mr. Harper that he doesn’t care what they think because he’s constantly communicating that he doesn’t care what anybody else thinks now that he’s got a majority . So in terms of the direct answer to your question, yes, I think that that one is starting to communicate something very negative about their ability to work with people. We want to work with provinces and territories. We want to listen to people across Canada. Mr. Harper makes it clear, he doesn’t even attend meetings with the provinces anymore, and it’s not for him. People pick that up. So we can come forward with a very positive offer that includes working with First Nations, working with the provinces, working with everyone should get a better Canada for everyone.
Tom Clark:
Let me get you to cast your eyes on another leader, new leader, Justin Trudeau.
Tom Mulcair:
Ah, not yet.
Tom Clark:
Well no, you’re right, but by the time this airs…no, a little bit after this interview goes to air, that will probably be the outcome. But poll after poll seems to be suggesting anyway that his numbers are crowding your numbers, that he is a real threat to the NDP. Take a look at Justin Trudeau and tell me what his Achilles heel is?
Tom Mulcair:
I’m not going to comment on anybody who hasn’t yet become leader of another party. I know what my job’s going to be starting Monday if that turns out to be the case. What I’ve always been able to do is to talk about the fact that I bring 35 years’ experience in government; three times elected provincially, three times federally. And also I’ve got a lot of years of experience as a senior public administrator. I would dare say that that last piece is something we have to communicate to Canadians. A lot of Canadians share the NDP’s vision. They share our goals. They haven’t always been shared federally whether or not we can be entrusted with the complex public administration. That’s what we’re doing now. We’re communicating clearly to Canadians that we share their vision, we share their objectives, but we’re also capable of doing a really good of managing the government.
Tom Clark:
How do you find, I know you don’t want to say that Justin Trudeau is the leader just yet, but how do you fight this newly emerged strength for the Liberals even before Justin Trudeau is officially in as the leader? When you’re taking a look at the forces that the voters will coalesce around to defeat Stephen Harper, if you don’t like Stephen Harper, it’s got to be either you or it’s got to be probably Justin Trudeau. How do you differentiate yourself other than what you said, experience?
Tom Mulcair:
If you look at the history of the Liberal party they’ve constantly flashed left and turned right. They didn’t do anything on climate change. They talked about it but they did nothing. In fact, Eddie Goldenberg, Jean Chrétien’s former chief of staff admitted they signed Kyoto to galvanize public opinion. It was a public relations exercise. That’s why Canada had one of the worst records in the world. I use that one example but there are lots of others, whether it’s on day care or First Nations issues. In the thirteen years they were there, they talked about doing things but they never actually did anything. The NDP intends to deliver, that’s the difference. We have policies. We have positions that Canadians are comfortable with; defending free universal public health care, working towards a day care system in Canada, making sure that we maintain 65 as the age for being able to retire. The Liberals spent years flashing left and turning right. Canadians know they can trust the NDP. That’s one of the defining differences between us as institutions.
Tom Clark:
I don’t want to interrupt, but briefly you’re talking about policy versus policy but as you know, the Liberals are coming back to life if you want, not on the basis of policy but on the basis of charisma. It’s all of a sudden now, Tom Mulcair the person against Justin Trudeau the person. How do you fight that?
Get breaking National news
Tom Mulcair:
But that’s an important thing too because if you look at the job that we’ve done as official Opposition, standing up to Stephen Harper, watching three of his ministers being forced to resign while we’re on guard as the official Opposition. Canadians are connecting with us, realizing that we’re the only ones who can take him on. But beyond that Tom, I’ll have to admit, that if it were indeed the fact that the election were in two days, you might be right because sometimes there’s that sort of a straw fire that goes up and lasts a few seconds. The election is not in two days, it’s not in two weeks, it’s not in two months; the next election is in two and a half years. It’s the only recipe I know in politics is to work non-stop. We’ve got two and a half years to work across Canada. I travelled the country constantly to realize Canadians share our vision. They share our goals. They want the NDP to get rid of Stephen Harper’s Conservatives because Canadians want change.
Tom Clark:
Two and a half years for you and I to continue the conversation. Tom Mulcair thanks very much for being here.
Tom Mulcair:
A pleasure Tom, nice to see you again.
Tom Clark:
Thanks for being here.
Well coming up on The West Block, Justin Trudeau and Tom Mulcair are about to face off in the House of Commons, so let the political marketing begin. Stay tuned.
Break
Tom Clark:
Welcome back to The West Block. Well the House of Commons resumes tomorrow and all eyes will be on the new Liberal leader and how he compares to Tom Mulcair. Both will be selling themselves as the only true alternative to Stephen Harper.
Well joining me now to discuss this and more are two veteran political communicators and marketers: Barry McLoughlin, McLoughlin Media and Allan Bonner of Allan Bonner Communications Management. Welcome to you both. Barry, let me start with you. At the starting gun from a marketing perspective in politics, who has the edge? Justin Trudeau or Tom Mulcair?
Barry McLoughlin:
Well right now you’ve have to say Justin Trudeau. He’s got momentum coming out of this leadership. He has a lot of passion. He’s got a lot of followers if you believe his Twitter verse that he’s involved in. You can see that he’s gone through a sort of a six to seven month in the media spotlight and come out surviving and indeed definitely enhanced by it. Tom Mulcair has you know, its yesterdays’ news a year ago. He’s got to find his opportunity here to get back in and you can see him go through some of these changes as well.
Allan Bonner:
Let’s just say the marketing analogy may not hold in politics. When you sell a can of soup in a grocery store, you buy eye level shelf placement. You run ads so that when a person walks by that can of soup you go, oh, right yeah, the can of soup. But in politics, you have to run ads, and put up lawn signs, and hold coffee parties, and do all kinds of things which may not translate into going to the voting place and ticking or crossing…putting an x at someone’s name. So there are so many dots to connect and so many hops to make before you translate Twitter followers or “likes” on Facebook into a vote. It’s like being back in 1967 saying you know Pierre Trudeau has a 100,000 names on a mailing list and 50,000 telephone numbers. Great, but are they going to vote?
Tom Clark:
Well they did in ’68 but we’ll leave that example to be. I want to talk about what the Conservatives did so effectively against Stéphane Dion and against Michael Ignatieff in terms of defining the new guy on the block and defining him in not very flattering ways. But what was interesting Barry, was that when Tom Mulcair came on the scene a year ago, the Conservatives didn’t launch a negative advertising campaign, why? What was the strategy?
Barry McLoughlin:
Well I don’t know exactly why they didn’t. To me, they allowed Mulcair actually to begin to define himself. I think you’ve seen him kind of gradually morph over the past year in particular from this kind of slightly angry, edgy, a little bit of streak of arrogance in him kind of guy that wasn’t going to…you know he doesn’t suffer fools gladly into a guy they’re trying to warm up. They’re trying to make him more engaging. The old rule of politics is you’ve got to, you know, you’ve got to define your opponent, before you’re defined, you know before your opponent defines you. And I think in the Dion and Ignatieff cases, they were highly successful in defining them right out of the gate. They never quite got going and I’d be interested to see how they define Justin Trudeau.
Allan Bonner:
How about a conspiracy theory for you? It is the Conservatives mission to destroy the Liberal party. They are doing not badly at that. They would probably rather have the old Tommy Douglas prediction of a left and a right to give voters a clear choice rather than the mushy Liberal middle. So Mulcair’s not a bad strong man to have on the left.
Tom Clark:
So keep Mulcair strong in order to continue your plot to…
Barry McLoughlin:
Yeah, I believe that they want to split Opposition by definition. They’d like to keep the NDP and the Liberals about equal. They can’t get enough together. I do think though that the real word we’re talking about here is branding. The brand of the leader, that’s the promise to the voter; what can you expect. They’ve branded Stephen Harper very clearly and very strongly. It doesn’t mean everybody has to like him. It means, what can I count on Stephen Harper to stand for and consistently. I think, you know, with Justin Trudeau, he’s going to have to define his brand. I mean right now he’s got a lot of the positives of momentum and passion and everything else but he’s policy light. He has to start defining himself and he’s going to have to, you can’t just wait around until the next election to do it. He’s got to begin on Monday morning.
Allan Bonner:
And he’s got the money. He has enough money to respond to what I’m predicting are going to be devastating attack ads, remarkable in Canadian history. And if he doesn’t use that money the way Ignatieff didn’t respond, it’s probably going to be over for him.
Tom Clark:
I want to put both of you for a moment into the imaginary Conservative war room and your assignment is to craft the most devastating ad that you can against Justin Trudeau. What’s that ad?
Allan Bonner:
Well it’s already been done. There are tons of minutes of video of a young Mr. Trudeau saying imprudent things, looking in different ways like D’Artagnan or whatever. And all you have to do in a negative ad is have the test of truth out. So in other words, the attack ad on Ignatieff that said he’s just visiting. He indeed had been gone for 25 years and appeared to not know his Canadian policy all that well. So what you do is you have to have some truth about it. The attack ads on Prime Minister Harper didn’t work because they were over the top about military in the streets and what have you. So you have to have an anchoring in truth to work and I think they’ve got that.
Barry McLoughlin:
But the key here though is to not ignore them. Ignatieff completely ignored them. Dion basically ignored them. And of course they always pick and select the worst sound bites you’ve ever had in your life and they put them in, pounding, pounding away. You cannot ignore these today. You’ve got to actually get out there. So, you know, in the end, it’s called the credible hit theory…the four credible hit theory. If there are four credible hits against you and you don’t reply, it forms belief. People begin to believe it must be true. And so I think that they’ve got to be so ready with the rapid response that they cannot allow that kind of momentum to build against Trudeau.
Tom Clark:
But do you think that they hit him on the basis of policy light or do you think that people out there have already said we discount that and we’re still going to support the guy.
Barry McLoughlin:
Yeah, I think that they’re going to hit him for being you know, obviously policy light. For some of the stumbles he’s made, some of the mistakes…he’ referenced himself in the third party, these are all kind of awkward things. But in the end, I think they might go after him for sort of, yes he’s a celebrity, yes he gets lots of coverage but it’s an empty suit. The McCain people did that on Obama and it was probably the most effective thing they had in their arsenal at the end of the game but it wasn’t enough to overcome.
Allan Bonner:
Do you think it’s a shot? Here’s a tougher bar for both of them. Mulcair has to remain the historic leader of the Opposition; historic because an NDP leader has never done that federally. He has to remain that in order to be considered even competent. Trudeau has to win dozens of seats, at least a dozen or 20 seats and in different regions to at least have a plausible victory story to tell after the next election. Those are very, very tough criteria to match.
Tom Clark:
Gentlemen, fascinating conversation. Barry McLoughlin and Allan Bonner thank you so much for being part of this, I appreciate your time.
Well coming up on The West Block, Justin Trudeau and Tom Mulcair as we heard are about to face off in the House. And we are going to talk also about the Labrador byelection and what’s happening on the rock. Stay tuned.
Break
Tom Clark:
The byelection in Labrador is shaping up to be a bare knuckle local fight with some national implications. A disgraced former cabinet minister wants his job back against some pretty tough odds. Why did the minister resign and what will voters be deciding on come Election Day? Here it is, your weekly West Block Primer:
In the 2011 election, Conservative candidate Peter Penashue squeaked to election victory by a mere 79 votes. That made him the only Conservative elected in Newfoundland and Labrador and that got him a seat at the cabinet table. But it wasn’t smooth sailing. Penashue’s brand took several hits. Investigations revealed a string of illegal campaign donations, totalling almost $28,000 dollars. And then there were all those airplane trips he took during the campaign. Well it turns out, they were courtesy of Provincial Airlines, but that contribution of nearly $19,000 dollars was never reported. Now Penashue paid back the illegal donations but now under investigation by Elections Canada, his reputation severely damaged, he decided to resign. And bring in Penashue 2.0 to run again. The bright shiny version has already lost some lustre though. Just this week, he revealed that as a cabinet minister, he held up funding for Newfoundland until he got a road upgrade for Labrador. That’s bare knuckle politics that doesn’t always have great appeal. And he’s still not in the clear from Elections Canada over his last campaign. Penashue 2.0 has a real fight on his hands.
And joining me now, the host of the very popular Back Talk Radio Show at VOCM in St. John’s Newfoundland, Paddy Daly. Paddy thanks very much for being with us today.
Paddy Daly:
Thanks for having me Tom, really appreciate the invitation.
Tom Clark:
What are you hearing from your listeners about the byelection in Labrador?
Paddy Daly:
Well initially of course, reaction to this byelection being called is as a result of the allegations of campaign finance law breaking by Peter Penashue so that dominated the conservation early on. The candidates involved are two really well known people: Peter Penashue of course and then Yvonne Jones and her long history as a Liberal MHA here in the province. And Harry Borlase is a relative unknown in Labrador but early on, it seemed like Penashue was going to be under siege but as we all know now nationwide he’s changed the narrative.
Tom Clark;
Yeah and you know one of the things that’s developed in the last couple of days Paddy is Peter Penashue said that he held up this project for Newfoundland in order to squeeze money out for money for a road in Labrador. That caused some real controversy but the defenders of Peter Penashue say hey that’s just the bare knuckle politics that’s practiced all the time in Newfoundland and Labrador. Is it really?
Paddy Daly:
Well it’s the bare knuckle variety of pork barreling politics, that’s for darn sure. Now Mr. Penashue, this is calculated strategy as everyone watching this program will be aware of. This is about changing the narrative away from the Elections Canada issue onto his only hope in this campaign is to prove that he has delivered for Labrador. Now this is interesting on a number of fronts though. Minister Penashue or pardon me, Mr. Penashue was our provincial representative from the federal cabinet which means he had an oath to uphold all of the provincial needs in the cabinet so this is not playing very well at all on the island portion of Newfoundland and Labrador. But I would suggest in Labrador, this is actually void Peter Penashue’s hopes of re-election. People in Labrador have long felt that they’ve got the short end of the stick when it comes to the sharing of the wealth based on natural resources and the attention from not only Ottawa but here in St. John’s where the seated provincial government is. So minister Penashue may indeed make some forward strides in Labrador but this has overall not been well received at all. It also boils down to a trust issue. If we had to trust him during this last election campaign and all the deflection and blaming others for the financial woes, this seems to be another example of where there’s a trust issue going to come to play. And on that point Tom, he says he’s held up some projects and investments here on the island, refuses to identify what they are. Even when I had the premier of the province, Kathy Dunderdale on the program this past Friday, she couldn’t identify what the projects were so I’m going to still hold this at arm’s length and I’m not even so sure I believe that he held up anything. Just trying to play I’ve delivered for the folks in Labrador. I don’t know how it’s playing but it may indeed give him a fighting chance in this byelection.
Tom Clark:
Okay, now on April 23rd, VOCN is having an all candidates debate, which anybody across the country can listen to by going to the website on vocn.com, but what are you expecting in that first of all, Paddy, is this really resolving itself down to a fight between the Liberals and the Conservatives? Are the NDP involved in this and what are you expecting the essence of the fight to be between Yvonne Jones the Liberal and Peter Penashue?
Paddy Daly:
Well Ms. Jones, she’s in a tricky spot here because delivering for Labrador first is going to be paramount for the voters in Labrador but she’ll I think try to hang her hat on the fact that you can’t trust Penashue. He says he’s delivered but why would the federal government who has already said their priority is investments in 5 Wing Goose Bay, is investigating in the Trans-Labrador Highway, why would they need to hold any projects hostage to go ahead and live up to a commitment that they made to the folks in Labrador. She’ll go right back to the fact that Peter Penashue came by his election dishonestly. That’s where it’s going to start and Yvonne Jones, for people who don’t know her across the country, a long history in the House of Assembly here in the province as a Liberal and she is no stranger to the rough and tumble of politics. It’s going to be tricky. Now the NDP candidate, Harry Borlase, he’s going to try to play the, I’m a new voice. I’m the young blood. I’m going to bring something new to the dance as opposed to the Liberal Tories same old story and I think it’s going to boil down to Jones and Penashue. And currently, I’m hearing from my listeners and people who talk politics, which is his religion, his kitchen table stuff of every single night of the week around here. People seem to think its Jones’ race to lose and I would think I agree with that at this point.
Tom Clark:
Paddy Daly of Back Talk; VOCM in Newfoundland and Labrador. Paddy thanks very much. We’ll keep in touch with you as this race goes on.
Paddy Daly:
Yeah, thanks for having me Tom.
Tom Clark:
You bet.
Well that is our show for today. For a Sunday, it will be a very busy day in politics. This evening, the Liberals announce their new leader. And, go to globalnews.ca, tune in. I’ll be hosting a 90-minute online special starting at 5:00 pm Eastern time. We’ll bring you speeches from former Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, outgoing Leader Bob Rae and of course the speech from the incoming leader. We’ll also bring you commentary from Canada’s best and brightest political minds.
Well, your MP’s will be back in Ottawa tomorrow and all eyes will be on the new Liberal leader’s debut in Question Period. And we’ll also be looking for how both the NDP and the Conservatives handle this new, more competitive political environment.
Join us this time next Sunday for all the news that you need from Parliament Hill. Until then, have a great week. I’m Tom Clark
Comments