THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 6, Season 8
Sunday, October 14, 2018
Host: Mercedes Stephenson
Guest Interviews: The Right Honourable Stephen Harper
Location: New York City
It’s Sunday, October 14th and from New York City, I’m Mercedes Stephenson. And this is The West Block.
Three years ago, Conservative prime minister Stephen Harper was voted out of office when the Liberal government won a majority.
Harper led the country for 10 years, increasing trade agreements around the world, implementing controversial tax cuts for the middle class, while shifting gears on Canada’s presence on the world stage. Now the former prime minister is running his own company, Harper and Associates, advising international clients on a changing global environment.
Later in the show, we’ll take a walk through New York’s financial district with the former prime minister, to talk about life after politics.
But first, we talk to The Right Honourable Stephen Harper about the launch of his new book Right Here, Right Now, in the first Canadian broadcast interview since he left government. Here’s that conversation:
Mercedes Stephenson: Mr. Harper, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us.
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Thank you for having me.
Mercedes Stephenson: So your new book Right Here, Right Now starts out with your favourite Donald Trump quote, “What the hell was going on?” So I’m going to start by asking you, what is going on around the world right now?
Mercedes Stephenson: Mr. Harper, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us.
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Thank you for having me.
Mercedes Stephenson: So your new book Right Here, Right Now starts out with your favourite Donald Trump quote, “What the hell was going on?” So I’m going to start by asking you, what is going on around the world right now?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Yeah. So maybe just, Mercedes, if I can, give you a kind of bit of perspective I wrote this from. Obviously, I’m involved in global business now. I, you know, manage my own consulting business that has—who does work around the world. I’m also chair of something called the IDU, which is a global federation of Conservative parties. So, you know, since I—really since I left office, the very beginning in 2016, we’ve had a series of extraordinary political events. We had Brexit. We’ve had the rise of Donald Trump, and you’re seeing across Europe and elsewhere, rise of the so-called populous movements. And as I kind of made my way through the global worlds of business and politics, I’ve kind of been seeing some commonalities. And so my thesis is really the following: that in the era of globalization, which I think overall has been very successful, you know, we had a billion people move out of poverty that’s mainly in Asia. But in many Western societies, not in Canada, and I caution your readers, the book is, as you know, not really about Canada. But in many Western societies, we’ve had stagnant or even declining incomes for middle and working class people. We had that for a long time. Then we had the global financial crisis. Unlike Canada and many countries, you know, there were the big bailouts of the banks, the corporations, “the wealthy”, and then slower non-growth for the rest of the population. And I think, if you look back the kind of political upheavals we’re now seeing is a consequence of all that and we shouldn’t really be surprised about it. The question really is what do we do to improve people’s lives and, you know, lead to a more positive future?
Mercedes Stephenson: So can you lay out for me, what is populism in your eyes?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Well, first of all, I think populism is—populism is kind of in the eyes of the beholder. The whole theory of populism, and it really stems out of the American-Canadian Midwest back from a century ago, is a political movement that tries to represent the views of the mass of the people, as opposed to the views of “elites”. So, populism varies with the times, but I think what the movement is today, it is essentially in many countries a revolt of the mass of the people who don’t identify with the views of big institutions, be they governments or corporations or media or entertainment industry, representing the mass of the people, challenging established assumptions about globalization, immigration, markets, trade, etc.
Mercedes Stephenson: Do you think we’re immune to it? Because I think of Maxime Bernier, I think of the election in New Brunswick. Is it that we’ve just avoided it so far? Or is there something unique in Canada that means it won’t catch hold?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: No, I think we’re not immune to it at all. I, I—look, I think there are many wonderful, strong characteristics of our country, but, you know, if we have a situation where large numbers of people are doing very badly and they feel that government ignores them or even despises them, then you will have—you could potentially have that kind of populous upheaval. I don’t see that today. I—you know, obviously, there’s changes in government in Canada and that changing government right now is coming from, for the most part, the conventional right of centre, which I’m encouraged about.
Mercedes Stephenson: You talk about “anywheres” and “somewheres” in your book. Who are those people?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: So, this is not a term that I invented. I’m not trying to claim in the book that everything is original. But there is an analyst who has used this and he really describes the fact that in the era of globalization, there’s come to be a class of people whose lives are really international. So those people, he calls the anywheres. Whereas the people traditionally, people who live within boundaries, who live within their communities, who are in traditional occupations, who travel only for a vacation. He calls those the somewheres, who are the bulk of the population. And one of the things I say in the book is that I think if you look at political debate, the framing of political debate, the framing of most media coverage commentary, frankly, a lot of it is framed from the perspective of the so-called anywheres, who are a tiny percentage of the population.
Mercedes Stephenson: But one of the things you say in the book is Donald Trump, you don’t consider him to be particularly Conservative, but that you believe if those grievances aren’t dealt with, you’ll get something much worse. What does that look like?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: I say that the Donald Trump’s of the world, the Nigel Farage’s of the world, one can disagree with them, especially a Conservative like myself can disagree with them on some things, but they are at least trying to fix what they see ails democratic, capitalist, market-oriented societies. And my fear is if they don’t have success or if Conservatives do not adapt to the political pressures that are driving these movements, my concern is we will have the left-wing version of that, which will be anti-market, which will be for socialist or Marxist economics, which I believe would turn us in an irreversible downturn direction, the kind of global pressures the West faces today, the economic pressures many people are facing, a return to that kind of economic program would be in my view, absolutely disastrous and probably irrecoverable. So, I view the—I look at Donald Trump. Obviously, there’s things that I’m uncomfortable with, but the Bernie Sanders of the world or the Jeremy Corbyn’s in Britain are the ones that really, really frighten me.
Mercedes Stephenson: So why do you think that left-wing populists are more dangerous than right-wing populists?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Because of their economic agendas, fundamentally. The market economy, as I talk in the book, is not perfect. It has to be well-governed, well-regulated. Market policies have to be selected carefully, but anti-market policies in an age of global competition would be ruinous to our economies.
Mercedes Stephenson: We’ve just come out of this renegotiation of NAFTA to USMCA and you raise a lot of concerns about China. Why do you think we need to be concerned about China?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Because I believe that the imbalances with China are a very serious problem. As I say in the book, as you know, I’m an economist by training, and a lot of economists will say the fact that we have a deficit with China doesn’t matter and no form of protectionism can possibly work. Look, those who say that trade deficits or trade surpluses don’t matter and protectionism can never work forgot to tell the Chinese, because the Chinese are building their economy through a policy of deliberate trade surplus and domestic protection at home. And the situation we have got is that the Chinese have wide ranging access to North American, European and to Western markets. But the fact is our access to the Chinese market is still very difficult.
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Mercedes Stephenson: And that’s part of what you argue is driving this populism.
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Absolutely.
Mercedes Stephenson: So I have to ask you this, this interesting chapter in the USMCA that requires notification if you want to do a trade deal with someone like China. Is that the kind of approach that is helpful in trying to deal with this problem?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Look, I think it’s very interesting in that I think it’s, as I’ve said, I think it’s an opportunity for both Canada and Mexico, to work with the United States on dealing with access to the Chinese market. We don’t want protectionism. We want to see greater access both ways and we haven’t had the kind of access to the Chinese market we need. And all three countries are suffering from growing trade imbalances with China, so I think this is an opportunity for our government to work with the United States, frankly, on something that we could not do on our own. I think it would be very difficult for Canada alone to try and fix that structural trade imbalance problem.
Mercedes Stephenson: Okay. Well, we have to go to a break, but we’ll be back right after this.
Mercedes Stephenson: Welcome back to The West Block. We’re talking with former prime minster The Right Honourable Stephen Harper.
Mr. Harper, one of the things you talk about in your book to a great extent is immigration and how that can drive populist forces and how to direct it. What is your vision for an immigration system that works?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: As I told a lot of leaders around the world, I think the foundation of Canada’s successful immigration policy has been that our immigration policy has always been primarily legal in nature. And in too many countries, United States, Europe, a substantial part of the immigration flow is illegal or what they call irregular. And two things happen when that occurs. First of all, there is not public support. Public support is ultimately built through the political and legal process. But the other thing is there’s not integration because frankly, people are not welcomed. They live in the shadows. So, first and foremost, a system has to be legal. And then as you know, our Government of Canada, we pursued a policy that we tried to attune it even more to the economic needs of the labour force. Obviously, there will always be family reunification, humanitarian refugee screens and immigration policy, but a successful immigration policy for a 21st century economy has to be geared to economic need and in my judgement, this is a real problem in a lot of countries. It cannot be targeted primarily at the lowest gauge or the low skill workers. Low skill and low wage workers are already under tremendous pressure in the global economy and bringing in large numbers of immigrants like that, simply drives down their wages and that is part of why you have a backlash.
Mercedes Stephenson: How in this day and age when people are able to just walk across borders—and it seems to be happening not just in Canada, but around the world—do countries deal with that?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Well, that doesn’t have to be the case. There are certainly measures you can have to prevent that. Look, I’m not going to comment on the current situation. I know that our party has been very critical of how the government’s handled this. I’m supportive of that. But, you know, there are ways. In terms of the United States, obviously, you know, President Trump’s talked about the wall. There are physical things you can do on physical interdiction, but a big part of what you have to do is make sure that, you know, employers don’t widely hire illegal workers. And unfortunately, that has been a rampant practice in the United States.
Mercedes Stephenson: You talk about carbon taxes as well in the book.
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Yeah.
Mercedes Stephenson: You’re very critical of them.
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: I am.
Mercedes Stephenson: And you don’t think that they can work.
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Right.
Mercedes Stephenson: Is there ever such a thing as a Conservative carbon tax?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: No. A carbon tax is not an environmental policy. I’ve said this when I was in office and I’ll say it again. Carbon tax is not an environmental policy. A carbon tax is about—is a revenue policy. People who want carbon taxes want money for the government. The level of carbon tax you would have to have to actually have impact on usage of fuels and emissions would be astronomically high. In fact, what appeals to a carbon tax for all politicians left, right and centre, is that you know a carbon tax isn’t going to affect behaviour and therefore the revenue stream from it is going to be very reliable and it’s going to be reliable over time. And as you know, my conservatism, and I have a strong view that Conservatives have to be tax cutters and certainly never tax hikers. And a carbon tax is just a tax hike. And frankly, I say I don’t comment a lot on the current government, but we all know that the current government wants a carbon tax because it can’t raise the GST and this is a backdoor way of raising the GST. And look, I’m pleased to see in Canada that more and more people in various provinces are figuring this out.
Mercedes Stephenson: How do Conservatives approach the environment in that case? What is a Conservative environmental policy?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Well, we did a lot of different things on the environment. Obviously, preservation and conservation’s a big part. You know, I think we protected more marine and land areas combined than, you know, any previous government. On the area of climate change and emissions, I’m a believer that there are really two things you can do. In the near term, I think you can—the most effective thing you do is actually just setting environmental standards, setting emission standards within the confines of existing technology, in some cases, simply moving the dirtiest technologies as we did with some aspects of the coal industry, just moving that offline.
In the longer term, you’ve got to have technological change that produces cleaner energy sources at affordable prices because as I look around the world and I see what’s happened with emissions, the only emissions reductions have occurred where countries have switched coal to natural gas or coal to nuclear for economic reasons. And so you’ve simply got to have the kind of policies that produce those kinds of decisions, because populations will always choose economic growth over what emissions may do 100 years from now. They’ll always choose their job today over an emissions target in 100 years from now.
Mercedes Stephenson: You talk a lot in the book, too, about international organizations and in an era where you have Russia and China, increasingly dominating that space, the U.S.—and you talk about this—becoming not necessarily more isolationist but more nationalist, do you think that organizations like the UN or NATO still have a place and can Canada keep them relevant?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Well, they still have a place. I think we just need to be realistic about what they are, what that place is. You know, in the case of the United Nations, my father always used to say the United Nations is a forum for everyone: the good, the bad and the ugly. We shouldn’t expect the United Nations to be a paragon of human rights because a lot of the countries at the United Nations don’t practice human rights. It’s a global forum. And global forums, it’s important there be global dialogue on key issues. NATO is a mutual defence pack that occasionally has had—there’s a lot of debate in NATO of what its mission is, but occasionally has had wider admission in terms of the protection of freedom and democracy around the globe. So, I think there’s room for these things. I think the big change that has come with the Trump administration, and I predict is going to continue, is that we have been used to the idea that the United States acts as a kind of a systemic player. The United States is not strictly focused on its own interest but on kind of global parameters of stability, peace, trade relationships that the United States is in a sense the protector of the system. As American power declines because of the rise of other powers, I just think it is unrealistic to expect the United States is going to act as a systemic player. The United States is going to act more and more in its own interest and I think the challenge for a country like Canada that is so closely tied to the United States by economics, by values, by interests, the challenge for us is to make sure that our partnership with the United States is strong and that we are working together wherever we can on mutually shared objectives.
Mercedes Stephenson: Coming up: a walk through New York’s financial district with the former prime minister and life post-politics.
Mercedes Stephenson: New York City is one of Stephen Harper’s favourite cities. We decided to take a stroll through the financial district. Take a listen:
When you’re out and about and you’re in, say, New York, does anyone ever recognize you and come up and talk to you about your time as prime minister?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: It does happen on occasion. They’re usually Canadians. Not always. Yeah, yeah it happens once in a while.
Mercedes Stephenson: What do they say to you about–?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: But I have to admit that one of the things that’s nice, as much as I love my country and love Canadians, it is nice to be unrecognized when I go elsewhere in the world.
Mercedes Stephenson: You get a little bit of anonymity?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Yeah, I kind of enjoy it. Yeah.
Mercedes Stephenson: I’m curious to know, too—
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: As you know, I was never a camera or microphones kind of guy. The kind of the fame of the job was never an attraction to me. So—
Mercedes Stephenson: Almost a disruption.
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Yeah.
Mercedes Stephenson: So what is it like for your family now being out of office?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: We’re really enjoying it. Look, I said I spent 10 years in the best job in the best country in the world. But, you know, my wife and I are having a great time as private citizens and it’s great to be back in Calgary where friends and family are and not too bad to be making a little bit of money, to be honest.
Mercedes Stephenson: And what kind of things do you do now? What’s the average day like for The Right Honourable Stephen Harper? Or there is no average day.
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Yeah, no average day. I’m on the road about three quarters of the time on business. So, you know, I do that. We do a lot of different things for a lot of different businesses and I have my hobbies as well. So, you know, no average days. I’m not bored.
Mercedes Stephenson: Still lots of hockey?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Yeah, I still watch hockey and a lot of football, too, and a bit of curling.
Mercedes Stephenson: Do you ever watch the media and hear your name come up? How does that feel when you’re no longer in power and you hear The Right Honourable Stephen Harper back in the media?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Well, I know you guys don’t believe this, but I haven’t watched the Canadian news broadcasts or read a Canadian newspaper in 15 years.
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: I am the opposite. I am definitely the opposite. I do follow, you know, I kind of follow the headlines and I follow international news, but I don’t—I don’t, you know, I never did follow—I never did follow my coverage closely in Canada even when I was in office.
Mercedes Stephenson: Why not?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Because—
Mercedes Stephenson: Is it distracting?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Yeah, it’s distracting. I actually think it’s—I don’t think it helps you run the country properly. You know, I don’t think you need to be focused on those kinds of things. You need to be focused on longer term things and people’s needs not the day to day.
Mercedes Stephenson: So what made you decide to put your thoughts down in this book?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Well, you know, I’ve been giving speeches along this line for a couple of years and it just seemed that, you know, given my current roles, both my global political role as well as my business role, that this was kind of a logical thing to do and who knows, there might be a market for it. But I think we’re doing okay on Amazon I hear.
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: So the real simple message is don’t—this political upheaval, do not dismiss it. Do not ridicule it. It is very serious. It is very real. It’s happening for real reasons and we have to have real—we have to have real thinking to address it. If we do, do that, we are entering a world of technological progress that should give us, like really unlimited human possibilities compared to my kids. My grandkids should have better lives than I have by a thousand fold. But if we screw it up, the consequences could be very serious and I am worried that it is getting screwed up in a lot of places.
Mercedes Stephenson: And, I guess, I’m interested with populism that you don’t necessarily think it’s the problem in itself, but more the reaction to it?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Yeah, absolutely. No, I think populism is strictly a reaction.
Mercedes Stephenson: What about resources because it was something your government was big on and in the book you talk about the importance of jobs. And there’s always the argument that natural resource projects like Trans Mountain, the pipelines produce jobs. How important is it to be able to get Canadian resources to market? And if they’re not in a country like Canada, does that drive populism?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Absolutely, it’s critical. One of the reasons that working class people have done comparatively better in Canada over the past, you know, decade and a half has been because we have a resource industry. Manufacturing and resource industries provide a lot of opportunity for blue collar people. And people who target resource industries are targeting blue collar opportunity and I think it’s terrible. I think we can be environmentally responsible without shutting down our resource sector, but unfortunately, that is what is happening.
Mercedes Stephenson: How long do you think this populism trend is likely to go for?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: It will go as long a large mass of people who are not doing well, it will continue. Unless their concerns are being addressed and their lives are improving, it will continue. And if it is not addressed, it will grow worse. And if it’s not addressed, it will eventually have implications that will be—that will be—will really harm us in the long term, which is why I think it is so important that Conservatives in particular, adapt and address these concerns.
Mercedes Stephenson: And is that, I guess, where it’s interesting you connect that to populism because is that where populism goes to violence and we have these concerns about some of the extreme right-wing groups like neo-Nazi’s, white supremacists who have been popping up. How do you contain that?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Yeah, I’d say—look, as I say, populism can take many forms and obviously, it can morph into—there can be extreme forms of unconventional political behaviour. And by the way, not just on the right, in this country on the left as well. Obviously, as a free and democratic society, you must avoid political actions or violence. That is the single thing that would undermine a free and democratic society more than anything.
Mercedes Stephenson: Coming up on the bull here, momentarily.
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Yeah.
Mercedes Stephenson: You signed all these free trade agreements, but that’s partially what you’re saying is free trade in itself is not inherently good or bad.
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: No, I didn’t say that. I think that trade is kind of inherently good, but not every commercial relationship is automatically a good relationship.
Mercedes Stephenson: Do you think USMCA is a good deal?
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: It’s unequivocally a good deal for the United States. Obviously, in Canada, I think the truth is in Canada more challenging, but it still provides us with relatively comprehensive and good access to the American market and that’s the important thing. But, you know, I would agree with Mr. Scheer’s comment that for Canada it’s kind of NAFTA 0.5.
Mercedes Stephenson: Thank you so much.
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper: Thanks.
Mercedes Stephenson: That’s your show for this week. From New York City, I’m Mercedes Stephenson, and we’ll see you back in Ottawa, next week.
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