THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 26, Season 6
Sunday, March 5, 2017
Host: Vassy Kapelos
Guests: Premier Rachel Notley, Shawn Moran, Rick Woodburn
Location: Ottawa
Vassy Kapelos: On this Sunday, Alberta Premier Rachel Notley is in Houston tomorrow for an energy conference. Last week, she was in Washington meeting with congressional leaders. What’s her message, and is it getting through?
Then, the bidding process for President Trump’s border wall between the U.S. and Mexico begins this week. When will the wall be built and what is needed to stop illegal immigrants making it to the U.S. and Canada through Mexico?
Plus, ‘justice delayed is justice denied’ for many as depleted federal and provincial judicial resources have led to long waits and accused criminals walking free. What will it take from the government to fix Canada’s justice system?
It’s Sunday, March 5th. I’m Vassy Kapelos, and this is The West Block.
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Vassy Kapelos: Alberta Premier Rachel Notley was in Washington last week meeting with the Trump administration and law makers on the Hill promoting trade and Alberta’s energy sector. And tomorrow she’s in Houston in an international energy conference. Is her message resonating? And what does her promise to take the fight for pipelines to court mean?
Joining me now from Edmonton is Alberta Premier Rachel Notley. Premier, nice to see you as always.
Premier Rachel Notley: Hi.
Vassy Kapelos: Hi. I wanted to ask you, what tangible results did you get out of your meetings in Washington last week? And did you hear anything with the people you met with that makes you think it was worth it?
Premier Rachel Notley: Well, you know I think absolutely it was worth it. I mean these kind of trips to Washington and the meetings you have, the relationships that you build, are really critical in order to ensure that decision-makers are aware of the role that you, or in our case Alberta, plays in their economy. Our government of course is focussed on job protection and job creation, and we know that trade with the U.S. plays a big part in that. And all sectors in Alberta have very strong integrated trade relationships with the U.S. And what we were able to talk about is not only is this good for Alberta jobs and Alberta job growth, it’s also really important for U.S. jobs and U.S. job growth. And the U.S. doesn’t necessarily always dedicate a lot of time thinking about their trade relationships with their neighbour to the north, and so being reminded of that is very helpful. And certainly that’s the message that I heard back after the many meetings that I had last week.
Vassy Kapelos: I know you met with a number of governors. Did you meet with anyone in the Trump administration?
Premier Rachel Notley: We did. We met with his recent appointment to the National Security Council. David Banks is the advisor on energy and climate. We also of course met with state department officials and we also met with the House of Representative officials as well as senators who chaired or are part of key committees that will deal with energy and commerce and trade in the two houses. So, it was a broad range of people that we met with. In all cases, the message the same, the strong trade relationship with Canada, with Alberta needs to be maintained because the jobs that those relationships support are critical to both sides of the border.
Vassy Kapelos: I wonder what your sense of how aware they are of the relationship and basically how much oil they actually import from Alberta and from Canada. I ask because at the last federal cabinet meeting in Calgary, a Trump advisor, Stephen Schwarzman, said he and others that he knows in the administration had no idea how much oil from Canada was exported to the United States. So how much of an uphill battle does that make selling the message that you’re there to sell?
Premier Rachel Notley: Well, I think it varies from official to official. I mean as you know, Alberta exports about 30 per cent of what the U.S. imports in terms of its oil and so it’s a critically important player in terms of providing not only energy security, but also competitive energy supply for the U.S. manufacturing sector. And so it’s very important to have that conversation. At one point with one official that I was meeting with, I mentioned last year our capital investment went down. We only had $30 billion dollars invested last year in Alberta, and their jaw dropped. And when I then pointed out 49 of 50 States actually supply to the oil sands in one way or the other, they were quite surprised. So it varies from person to person. We know of course the head of the Statement department now, Rex Tillerson, does actually have a very solid understanding of the trade relationship at least in energy between Canada and the U.S., but we need to talk about it for all sectors because it’s quite something. You know products will cross the border three or four times back and forth while they’re being made, and jobs are reliant on that on both sides of the border. And so I said to one person, you know you pull one string and suddenly you’ve undone the whole sweater. And so we need to be very conscious of that, and I think that that message was heard.
Vassy Kapelos: I want to switch gears to the throne speech delivered late last week. In that speech, your government said that you’d go to court to defend the Trans Mountain pipeline. What does that mean?
Premier Rachel Notley: Well it basically comes down to sort of what the issues that will be are, that are in play with the federal court. There were a number of applications filed as you know in B.C., and presumably the federal court will conclude that it will hear them. And so we’ll be interested, obviously we know Kinder Morgan is fundamentally important to Albertans in terms of job creation, but also as a province that has our own job in terms of managing development. We have a role to play in ensuring that the priority of federal laws vis-à-vis provincial laws are understood. The role of the NEB is understood. What amounts to appropriate levels of consultation is clearly understood. We think that the process up till now on Kinder Morgan has been appropriate, but the decision that comes down will have implications, not only for that but for the work that we do in the future. And so it’s good reasons for us to be a part of it. And again, we know that Kinder Morgan is fundamentally important for job creation, not only here in Alberta but also extensively for the people in B.C.
Vassy Kapelos: I know you’ve also spoken or in that throne speech there was also mention of Energy East and you’ve spoken with the merits of that proposed pipeline as well, but after Trans Mountains approval, the possibility now of Keystone again, do you really think that there is a national political will to make that pipeline happen?
Premier Rachel Notley: Well, you know I think that there’s a lot of benefit to us getting access to tidewater, Canadian tidewater on both the west and the east coast. I frankly think that in the long term, it would be good for Canadians to buy Canadian oil. And I know that on the east coast, they’re looking for opportunities to be able to manufacture and upgrade as part of the whole upgrading chain. So there’s lots of value to it. You know, the pipeline building process happens over many, many years, is impacted by a number of different things. Keystone’s an example of how a change in administration can change the outcome. And so you can’t predict. And we believe that there continues to be a strong argument for going east as well.
Vassy Kapelos: I guess though, I asked how much of an argument is there, and I asked maybe on behalf of some of the people who voted for you who didn’t think that you would be in favour of having Keystone be built if it gets built and Trans Mountain, and now Energy East. I don’t have much time, but is it really necessary to have that third one?
Premier Rachel Notley: Well, you know the fact of the matter is, is with our climate leadership plan, we have put a cap in place on emissions. And that’s world leading. It’s the first time that kind of thing has happened. Even with the emissions cap in place, the fact of the matter is, is that the level of production that we currently have does not allow us to strategically select our markets in a way that ensures that Albertans and Canadians get the best return for this resource that we have right now.
Vassy Kapelos: Okay, thanks Premier.
Premier Rachel Notley: Thank you.
Vassy Kapelos: Still to come, Canada’s justice system is broken, and provinces want the Feds help to fix it. But first, would President Trump’s wall reduce the number of asylum seekers crossing by foot illegally into the U.S. and Canada?
President Trump: ‘We must restore integrity and the rule of law at our borders. For that reason, we will soon begin the construction of a great, great wall along our southern border.’
Vassy Kapelos: Welcome back. That was President Donald Trump last week in his address to Congress. This week the bidding process for Trump’s wall begins with contracts expected next month. But will the wall stop illegal immigrants from crossing in the U.S. from Mexico, and how will it impact anyone hoping to get to Canada from Mexico?
Joining me now from San Diego is Shawn Moran from the National Border Patrol Council. Great to see you again, thanks for being with us.
I wanted to start off by asking, I know you represent people on the front lines, the border patrol agents, and your organization does support President Trump and his border wall. How exactly do you envision this wall actually working?
Shawn Moran: Well, in a perfect world, the wall is going to stop the illegal immigration coming across. I think we’ve learned a lot of lessons from the fencing that we’ve put up over the past 20 years as part of Operations Gatekeeper and Hold the Line. So I think we’ll see some double and triple layer fence in some locations. And you’ll see supplemental fences where we have maybe just a primary fence now. I think people forget that the fence does stop vehicles. It’s very rare that you see a vehicle coming across the southern border where there’s a fence now. In terms of people, it does slow them down. It gives us an opportunity to respond. And it’s a tool that we definitely need. So it’s not the solution to everything, but it is one tool.
Vassy Kapelos: So if the fence is already working, are you saying that I guess you envision just a sort of multiple layering of that fence instead of an actual sort of cement wall as we’ve heard it described in other venues?
Shawn Moran: Yeah, I believe you’ll see supplementing of areas that just have a primary steel landing mat fence. So I think you’ll see some of the more high tech fences like we have in the San Diego area, and also some of the more urban areas of the U.S.-Mexico border. So we’re going to take things like that, and I think we’re going to expand it into areas that could benefit from that.
Vassy Kapelos: How much of a problem do you see it as being already on the ground? And why did you feel it was a big enough problem to actually throw your support so vocally behind, not only Trump but this idea?
Shawn Moran: I’ve been a border patrol agent for almost 20 years and I don’t remember a time where we’ve actually enforced the immigration laws of the United States. Both political parties here in the United States have tried to look tough on border security without actually having any effect on border security. We have doubled the number of border patrol agents twice since I’ve been in the border patrol. It has had very little effect because we haven’t been allowed to do the job. But now we have the political will. We had a candidate and now a president that has the political will. And that was the sole reason that we supported him.
Vassy Kapelos: So I’ve read some reports that show that the number of illegal immigrants has stagnated or declined in the last five years. Are you saying that that isn’t the case, that’s not what you’re seeing?
Shawn Moran: Well the numbers did bottom out in 2011. 2015, they were also down, but if you look from 2011 till now, the trend is going back upward. But again, those numbers can be misleading because DHS and CBP, they don’t really like to publicize how many they believe get away. We believe that we are about 40 per cent effective. So 60 per cent of the people that try to cross the border are getting through. We know in some of our busier areas, we don’t have enough agents to respond to all the incursions that we have. So we don’t know where those people are going. We don’t know what their intent is. We don’t know their identity, and that’s the really scary part of border security.
Vassy Kapelos: I want to move the conversation up north towards the border the U.S. shares with Canada. What’s your union’s level of concern about the security along the northern border?
Shawn Moran: Well it is a concern. Obviously we have much better relations with the Government of Canada and also with the Canadian Border Services Agency, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Those are relationships that I wish we could emulate on the southern border but we haven’t been able to do that. The intelligence sharing is much better on the northern border than the southern border, so it’s a totally different dynamic. But there is concern that somebody who is committed enough could come across the Canadian border into the United States or vice versa. We’ve seen terrorist attacks in both countries, and that’s something we want to try and prevent.
Vassy Kapelos: And what specific recommendations do you have to increase security along this border?
Shawn Moran: We’ve called for 3,500 more agents which would more than double the number of agents that are assigned to the northern border. It is a very different environment. Border patrol agents are often the first type of emergency services on the northern border, even for many of our American communities because of the scarcity of local and state law enforcement. So this would give us much more operational control of areas on the northern border. Like I said, it would double the number of people, plus another 500 that we currently have up there.
Vassy Kapelos: I know you’ve been calling for that for a while. Do you feel or have you had any indications that you will receive those extra resources from the president?
Shawn Moran: Well the number that we had recommended was 5,000, and I’m sorry, I got my numbers turned around. We’re calling for another 1,500 to go to the northern border and 3,500 to go to the southern border. I don’t know how that is going to play out in terms of President Trump’s plans. I know he has gone with the recommendation of 5,000 but how they’re going to be allocated, I’m not sure.
Vassy Kapelos: And before we wrap, I wanted to ask you about something we’re seeing over our border. We’re seeing a number of sort of asylum seekers crossing illegally by foot in between border crossings into Canada from the United States. What’s your level of concern about that or are your agents doing anything to stop them?
Shawn Moran: It is a concern. Obviously as civilized nations we want to facilitate legal immigration through the ports of entry, and if people are going to claim asylum we would like them to go through the legal means through a port of entry. But the U.S. border patrol agents, if we see somebody attempting to cross the border, they’re going to try to detain them and ascertain whether or not they are allowed to be in the United States legally and we will continue to work with our Canadian law enforcement partners if we determine that the person is a threat. But if they do not have status to be in the United States legally, they will be arrested prior to them attempting to get into Canada.
Vassy Kapelos: But if they do have that status, is there anything you can do before they walk into our country?
Shawn Moran: We can try and get them to a port of entry, but if they are allowed to be here legally they do have rights.
Vassy Kapelos: Okay, thanks for your time Mr. Moran.
Shawn Moran: Thank you.
Vassy Kapelos: Up next, criminals walking free because of lengthy trial delays and insufficient resources. What needs to be done to fix the justice system?
Vassy Kapelos: Welcome back. As the legal maxim goes, justice delayed is justice denied. And for many Canadians across the country, lengthy court delays, a lack of resources has left them reeling as accused criminals go free. Well some provinces are hiring more crown attorneys, across the country more resources are needed or all of us could pay the price. Just how serious is the problem? Here’s your West Block primer:
Voiceover: Should accused criminals be able to walk free if prosecuting them takes too long? According to the Supreme Court of Canada, the answer is yes.
Last summer, in what’s become known as the Jordan Decision, the court ruled cases in provincial court should not exceed 18 months from charge to the end of trial, and 30 months in superior court. It’s hard to quantify the impact of the new deadline so far, but at least one accused murderer has walked free.
And in Ottawa, just last month, charges against a teen accused of sexually assaulting a three-year-old were stayed because the length of the trial violated the accused right to a speedy one.
In Alberta alone, at least a dozen cases have been dismissed because of Jordan. Provinces are trying to figure out how to grapple with the changes and they’re insisting the federal government needs to help.
Vassy Kapelos: Joining me now from Halifax is Rick Woodburn, the president of the Canadian Association of Crown Councils. Thanks very much for being with us, sir. Great to have you on the program.
I wanted to start off by asking how big of an impact has the Jordan Decision and a lack of resources had on the justice system from your perspective?
Rick Woodburn: Well listen, thank you very much for inviting me on the show. I have to say that the Jordan Decision didn’t really start this crisis. It didn’t create this crisis. Our justice system was already in crisis long before Jordan was even pronounced. The Supreme Court of Canada just reiterated that we all have to come together to solve this issue of delay in our court system.
Vassy Kapelos: So, how bad is it? You call it a crisis. What does the crisis mean, and how bad is it?
Rick Woodburn: Like I said, it’s been going on for years. The Jordan Decision didn’t just suddenly spring this all on us. It’s not something that’s certainly our organization has been talking about it for years, the delays in the courtrooms. The complexity and magnitude of cases has grown over the years, so what we’re seeing is more complex cases, more disclosure, and they’re taking longer to prosecute. Hence, they’re taking longer to get through the system. And if you want to listen to what some have to say, ‘clogging up the system’ if you will.
Vassy Kapelos: And I wanted to ask you of the consequences of the crisis you describe, I think the majority of Canadians don’t necessarily deal with the criminal justice system, and it’s maybe not something we think of as affecting our daily lives. So how do you think the problems you describe can affect Canadians or are affecting Canadians?
Rick Woodburn: Well it’s already affecting Canadians. It starts with the magnitude of a homicide being stayed for delay, a sexual assault being stayed for delay. We see out in Alberta that the Crown, and this is the first I’ve ever heard of this, the Crown is staying charges as a result of a lack of resources. They’re being mandated to do that.
Vassy Kapelos: So what is the fix? And I’ve seen different solutions proposed by different provinces, but ultimately where does the fix lie?
Rick Woodburn: Well it’s a complicated question. Ultimately the easiest answer to that question is there’s a great lack of resources. Budgets have either been frozen or have stayed the same over years, and I’m talking since I started following the problem in 2006 until now. There’s been no great difference in the number of crowns, the number of judges, defence lawyer staff and courtrooms. There just hasn’t been the increase along with the more serious crimes that are more prolific now than they used to be.
Vassy Kapelos: And is that from the federal government’s perspective, or the provincial, or is it a combination of both?
Rick Woodburn: Well it’s a combination of both mainly because my understanding is that the provinces rely on transfer payments to prosecute criminal offences. So it’s, federal government ultimately has to take a serious look on whether or not they want a justice system that is fair and represents the democratic society we live in.
Vassy Kapelos: Why do you think there has been a hesitancy? And like you said, this isn’t a new problem. I remember reporting on it in Alberta five years ago, extreme delays. Why do you think there is that hesitancy on the part of the federal government to up the resources?
Rick Woodburn: Well that’s a simple question, and they’d answer it by saying the resources are already stretched thin and they don’t have the money to properly fund the justice system. Or, as I’ve heard on some occasions, we have to work harder or try new strategies in order to try to make this better. Well we’ve been working on this for a long period of time. We’ve tried those strategies. We’ve done the triaging. We’ve done the plea bargaining. We’ve streamlined our court processes. We’ve been diverting various different charges over the years. We’re seeing that we’re still having the same problem. And the reason why is because the more serious crimes, the ones that are taking the most time, are on the increase.
Vassy Kapelos: And have you had any dealings on behalf of your organization with the federal government? Have you sort of made I guess so-called pleas for more resources? And what as the response been like?
Rick Woodburn: I haven’t directly. I know that our organization has gone in front of the Senate committee and talked about delay and the effects of various mandatory minimums, new self-defence laws and things like that, and talked about the increase in workload for Crowns. So the federal government at least knows that there are issues and have been issues with our justice system.
Vassy Kapelos: Great. We’ll leave it there. Thanks for your time, sir.
Rick Woodburn: Okay, thank you very much.
Vassy Kapelos: Well that’s our show for today. We leave you with a virtual tour of the Senate designed by Carleton University to allow viewers to learn about this historic chamber. Thanks for joining us.
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