Transcript Season 4 Episode 30

WATCH: The full broadcast of The West Block with Tom Clark, aired Sunday, April 5, 2015. 

Host: Tom Clark

Guest Interviews: Mark Kennedy, Susan Delacourt, David Akin, James Moore, Peter Stoffer

Location: Ottawa

On this Sunday, the courtroom is ready and the lineup’s about to form for what could be one of the biggest political events in years:  the trial of Mike Duffy starts Tuesday and we have a preview.

Then, the federal budget will be unveiled on April 21^st:  why the economy is no longer the sure thing for the Conservatives re-election chances.  Industry Minister James Moore is here.

Plus, “Plane Talk” with long time NDP MP Peter Stoffer:  his very personal reason for taking on the cause of veterans and what he thinks of a coalition with the Liberals.

It is Sunday, April the 5th and from the nation’s capital, I’m Tom Clark.  And you are in The West Block.

Well on Tuesday, a judge’s gavel will call court into session for what could be one of the most sensational political trials in modern times.  Mike Duffy’s day in court has arrived.  Now the charges are all about criminal law but the context is all political, including as it does, witnesses who are or were members of the prime minister’s senior staff.  Before we get into that, here’s a look at the timeline of events that brought us here:

It all started in December of 2012.  Questions were raised about Duffy’s expense claims.  Audits are ordered.  Fast forward now to February 13^th, Mike Duffy speaks to the prime minister insisting that he hasn’t done anything wrong.  He says Stephen Harper told him to repay the questionable expenses.

Stephen Harper: “That my view was that his expense claims were inappropriate and they should be repaid Mr. Speaker.”

Tom Clark:

March 25^th, the Senate is quietly reimbursed for just over $90 thousand dollars.  Early May, the government is praising Mike Duffy.

Peter Van Loan: “The fact he showed the kind of leadership that we like to see from Liberal Senator Mac Harb.”

Tom Clark:

But now for long: May 15^th, the Prime Minister’s Office confirms Harper’s chief of staff, Nigel Wright actually wrote the $90,000 cheque.  Duffy quits the caucus the very next day, still insisting he did nothing wrong.  A few days later, Nigel Wright resigns.  Stephen Harper, “reluctantly accepts his resignation.”

Later that month, the matter of Duffy’s expense claims is sent to the RCMP.  By November 20^th, RCMP documents reveal more details of damage control behind the scenes, raising more questions about what Stephen Harper knew and when. Flashback to February 22^nd, as the Conservative party considers paying the questionable expenses for Duffy, Nigel Wright penned this now famous e-mail:  “We are good to go from the PM.”  Well once the e-mail is released, Harper’s goodwill for Wright vanishes.

Stephen Harper:  “This is completely unacceptable for me and for the public to be misled in this way.  That is why Mr. Wright no longer works here.”

Tom Clark:

Well joining me now to break all this down, I’m joined by three of the best:  Mark Kennedy, Parliamentary Bureau Chief for the Ottawa Citizen; Susan Delacourt, political columnist for the Toronto Star and joining us, David Akin, a political columnist for the Hill Times.  Good to have you all here.

Great to be here.

Tom Clark:

Late last week we found out that the parliamentary press gallery has now asked for 50 reserved seats in the courtroom.  As of this moment, the risers, the stages are already built outside the courtroom for the cameras that are expected there.  A lot of people are saying this is going to be the political trial of modern times.  So the question to all of you, will it be?

Mark Kennedy:

Listen, there are going to be days when there are going to be explosive testimony and we’re all going to get very excited about it and the question will be does it hurt Stephen Harper?  I don’t think there’s any doubt that the crown is going to be coming forward with a testimony that is going to be injurious to Senator Duffy.  There’s no doubt about that.  The $64 million question will be does it hurt Stephen Harper just months before a campaign.  It’s not in the crown’s interest.  I don’t think they even care if this hurts Stephen Harper, but it’ll be in the interest of Mr. Duffy’s lawyer to bring forward evidence that does.  So let’s watch for that.

Susan Delacourt:

I think everybody, since the moment Mike Duffy said, but wait, there’s more, has been waiting for more.  And I know I’m certainly watching.  I think the interesting thing to parse in this is people are going to want to make this a story about the Senate but the interest and why those risers are there is this is a story about the Prime Minister’s Office.  And this is not about a Senate reform or institutional dusty old Senate story.  This is about what the Prime Minister’s Office was doing which is going to make it really interesting.

David Akin:

We’ve heard that from Justin Trudeau last week when he was saying this is about judgment of the prime minister.  It doesn’t matter Wallin, Duffy, whoever it is, it’s about the PMs judgement and certainly that’s what we’re going to hear from the political opponents, the prime minister.  The trial is 41 days long or they set aside 41 sitting days; it could run until June.  It’s going to be at the top story on Tuesday when it opens but as you know, covering any one of these things is going to go up and down over time.

Tom Clark:

And I can tell you too from sources inside the trial are suggesting that it may go into September and possibly October.

David Akin:

The verdict may not be before we vote in October.

Tom Clark:

The question though, and you brought it up is, we’ve already noticed that the government has tried to distance themselves from Mike Duffy and then perhaps other senators who may end up in a courtroom although appointed by the Conservatives.  The Conservatives now refer to Mike Duffy as a former journalist as opposed to a former Conservative fundraiser. Are they going to be successful, Susan in being able to make that separation in the public mind between whatever Mike Duffy did or did not do and the operation of the Conservative government.

Susan Delacourt:

That’s going to be very hard to do when you have witnesses coming in over and over again.  How many have we seen are coming in, Nigel Wright, that’ll be a big day.  I think it’s going to be really hard to claim he is representing our tribe when yeah, jury’s out about when he left that tribe anyway.

Mark Kennedy:

But you know the political question will be this, we went months in this town and on Parliament Hill watching the opposition trying to get an answer from the prime minister, what did you know and when did you know it on a range of issues in terms of not just Nigel Wright but that whole question.  Good to go:  there is a very fascinating episode during this whole process where it seems that Nigel Wright was getting the permission from the prime minister on whether or not to have Conservative party funds pay for Mr. Duffy’s expenses.

Tom Clark:

And we’ve already had the Conservative party saying that they considered paying it, if it was no more than $30,000 dollars.

Mark Kennedy:

Correct, but we didn’t really get to the heart of that.  So now people will be on the stands, so are we going to learn more about that and if so, will it be incriminating for Stephen Harper?

David Akin:

The one thing, I don’t know when you talk to your Conservative friends, insiders etc. is, while they were really upset at the time all of this was coming out, they don’t seem to be as nervous on the eve of the trial.  Duffy’s side is saying there are 800 e-mails that have not yet been released.  You know, just wait for things.  But my sense is the PMO and the Conservatives they know what Duffy’s got because they’re on the other side of his e-mails and they’re feeling like Duffy, there are probably not many bullets he’s got left in his gun.  The thing that I think whose got bullets is the auditor general.  I mean that’s a separate thing but it’s going to be happening concurrently is the audits of all these other senators and then the issue of how to distance yourself for a Conservative.  I think it’s going to apply to Justin Trudeau and the Liberals and I think that’s one of the reasons why Trudeau through his senators out last year I guess.

Tom Clark:

Doesn’t look like a dumb move right now.  I mean as David says, with the audit coming up, the Senate is going to be in somewhat of shall we say disrepute between the trial and what they are going to find out about cold camembert cheese. But the Senate is now required under the constitution to respond to any of this.  They can just thumb their nose at the whole process, can’t they?

Susan Delacourt:

I think those Nancy Ruth comments: the ice-cold camembert on broken crackers, have actually set the stage for next week. In the same way, and I wrote about this too, that Bev Oda’s orange juice not her contempt charge in Parliament is what did her in; people, when they get a little shiny object and broken crackers and cheese will be the object of the week next week.

Mark Kennedy:
It’ll be a pox on all your houses and every senator is going to be under that cloud.  And then the second question that Canadians will ask will be, “you Stephen Harper and, I suppose you, any other prime minister who has appointed anyone to the Senate in the past, why did you do it when these people take on that attitude?”

Tom Clark:

I want to jump for a second David because I want to go to the other great story that’s been around last week and it’s what I call “Kenny and the Jets.”  Jason Kenney and the jets that carry those laser guided bombs that apparently only we have, but of course he got into a big dispute with the chief of the defence staff.  The guy who runs the entire military first tried to defend Kenney then admitted no, he was wrong.  I have not seen perhaps since the days of Sir Arthur Currie this sort of division between the defence minister and the head of our Armed Forces, what’s going on?

David Akin:

And there’s one more character here and that’s the Ottawa Citizen’s great defence reporter David Pugliese who has been a thorn in the side of the defence guys and generals for decades.

Mark Kennedy:

Years.

David Akin:

Years… he’s a tremendous reporter and he’s the one who initially said to excuse Minister Kenney but what you said, you got things wrong about the sub munitions.  And so that’s one of the things there that again, gets the defence guys their backs up because they hate it when Pugliese has got another one up on him.

Tom Clark:

And let’s just bring everybody in, in what we’re talking about here is that Jason Kenney said one of the reasons that we went into Syria was because we had precision guided munitions that the other allies didn’t have.  And at first, Lawson says yes that’s true and then everybody went on Wikipedia found out that in fact wasn’t true.

Mark Kennedy:

Well it was even worse than that.  The minister basically made the statement our defence reporter, David who is first-rate wrote a story saying actually you’re wrong.  Then the chief of the defence staff came to the aid of the defence minister.  He said to us, at the Ottawa Citizen, you’re wrong.  And then not long after that had to basically say, actually, you’re right.  And the defence minister had to go into the House of Commons, eat crow.  The question now is who is wrong?  Was he wrong or is he blaming his chief of defence staff incorrectly?  And if that’s the case, he could have trouble down the road.

Tom Clark:

So Susan, the question is this then that if Jason Kenney so far has just said I take responsibility for the fact that those people screwed up and gave me the wrong information, which was an odd apology to say the least.   But we’re a country essentially in combat.  Whatever you want to call it, we’re dropping bombs in Iraq and Syria.  We’ve got people on the ground there.  It seems to be an awkward time to have the chief of the defence staff and the minister of defence at odds with one another.  Does this hurt our campaign or ongoing mission?

Susan Delacourt:

Very definitely, very definitely, well maybe not on the ground over there where they’re not reading the Citizen but there was another line in that Citizen report, that was important that sources told Mr. Pugliese that Lawson was pressured to give that.  And if this is a story about the political masters fooling around, I agree with you, with the Department of Defence or the men in uniform, then that’s a schism you don’t want.  You do not want that when such big things are at stake.

Tom Clark:

I’ve got to give you all time to get rested up, get some sleep because next week’s going to be a wild week.  But Mark Kennedy, Susan Delacourt and David Akin welcome.

David Akin:

Nice to be here.

Tom Clark:

Thank you very much.

Mark Kennedy:

Thank you.

Tom Clark:

Well still to come on The West Block, Canada’s industry minister on the upcoming budget.  And then later, “Plane Talk” with NDP MP Peter Stoffer on finding courage in politics and a personal story behind his passion for helping those who serve our country.  That’s next.

Break

Tom Clark:

Welcome back.  Well last week, the finance minister announced the date for this year’s budget.  It’ll be April 21^st.  And joining me now is Industry Minister James Moore from Vancouver.  Minister, good to have you here.

You know as we go into budget season here, if you talk to any of the mayors of big cities in this country, they will say that our multi, multi billion dollars infrastructure deficit is hurting productivity, it’s hurting competitiveness in our firms.  So did you lobby personal Joe Oliver for more infrastructure spending to head off these problems?

James Moore:

Well look, the prime minister understands that infrastructure is a key to the Canadian economy and it’s important for all of us to take these concerns that have been raised by mayors seriously.  That’s why in last year’s budget we committed to the Build Canada Fund, the largest infrastructure program in Canada’s history.  We worked with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities. We listened to them and because we have a balanced budget and because we are focused we are going to be making record investments into infrastructure.  That’s a commitment that we passed in last year’s budget and it’s a commitment that we’re delivering on through this year because of our sound fiscal management.

Tom Clark:

Let me just let everybody see for example what some of the big city mayors have actually said about the infrastructure spending program that your government has had for the past couple of years.  Naheed Nenshi from Calgary says this, “We don’t have a good system of predictable stable, long term revenue that helps us fund infrastructure.  Congestion is actually people of their quality of life.”  Gregor Robertson, the Mayor of Vancouver: “If you fail to invest in infrastructure, quality of life and emerging industries, there are dire consequences.  Canada has great cities.  We’re very lucky for what we have but we’re falling way behind.”  It doesn’t sound like a vote of support from at least those two mayors of big cities.

James Moore:

Look, as I said, this is a large infrastructure program, over $70 billion dollars that we’re investing over the next ten years. This is on top of the $33 billion infrastructure stimulus program that we had during the time of the recession.  We are investing records of money through the gas tax fund, through direct funding of investment into infrastructure.  We’re working with municipalities.  We made the gas tax fund permanent.  We indexed it to inflation.  And we broadened the number of programs to which the kind of infrastructure that it can be applied to.  So we are working with mayors.  We are delivering record funds and it’s only because, only because Stephen Harper has shown the leadership of driving to a balanced budget and creating the fiscal capacity to deliver.  Other levels of …

Tom Clark:

Okay, we’ve had balanced budgets in this country before Mr. Moore but what I’m wondering is, are you going to be increasing the money that you’re putting into infrastructure in this coming budget?

James Moore:

Well you’ll have to wait and see but there will be of course an ongoing serious commitment from this government, not just what we announced in last year’s budget, but an ongoing serious commitment by this government to work with all levels of government including municipalities to deliver on the infrastructure needs of this country.  We’ve done that in big cities, small cities, and rural municipalities all across this country.  We’ve invested in ports, in airports, in roads, in public transit, and we’ll continue to do so with more money.  Again, more money than any government in Canada’s history, Stephen Harper’s government has delivered on infrastructure and will continue to.

Tom Clark:

Okay, you know, speaking of your boss, Stephen Harper, last week he was asked about the budget and he said that we all know of course it’s going to be in balance because everybody has been saying that for a while.  But he said something that struck me as being interesting.  He said he wants the economy to be strong enough to go back into deficit if necessary. What exactly do you mean by going back into deficit?

James Moore:

Well I didn’t see that but that’s of course not at all what the commitment is of our government.  You know when we were elected into a majority government on May 2^nd, we were elected saying we were going to focus on the Canadian economy and we have a balanced budget.  We have a balanced budget.  The other opposition parties who have criticized every difficult decision that our government has made to drive at a balanced budget have no plan to balance the budget and frankly don’t even ask questions in Parliament about getting to a balanced budget.  But we have a balanced budget now…

Tom Clark:

Okay, I know the election…Mr. Moore, I know the election campaign is underway but I was just wondering what your boss meant by going back into deficit.  Anyway, we’ll have to leave it at that.  Industry Minister James Moore thanks very much for joining us.

James Moore:

Tom Clark:

Break

Tom Clark:

Welcome back.  NDP stalwart, Peter Stoffer was first elected back in 1997, in the Nova Scotia riding of Sackville-Eastern Shore.  Now he has promised that this coming election will be his last.

Over the years, he served as the NDP critic for fisheries, seniors, Canada Post, just to name a few but by far, his greatest passion lies in the job he holds now, critic for Veterans Affairs.  Why is that?  Well we took him up for a little “Plane Talk”.

So Peter Stoffer, are you sure you want to do this?

Peter Stoffer:

Yeah.

Tom Clark:

We’re off… we’re still on the ground.

Peter Stoffer:

No worries, let’s do it.

Tom Clark:

Rockcliffe traffic: Charlie, Gulf, Bravo, X-ray, Papa is rolling 27, Rockcliffe.

Peter Stoffer, good to have you on the plane.  Welcome to “Plane Talk”.

Peter Stoffer:

Thank you very much for allowing me to come with you.  This is a real honour and a treat.  Thank you.

Tom Clark:

If you had a time machine, what period in history would you want to go back to?

Peter Stoffer:

I would say the initial arrival of John Cabot and those folks, Champlain and all those folks who are the European contact with North America.  I’d love to be on the boat with Mathieu Da Costa and Champlain and to step on this beautiful land and see it long before it was developed like this, and interact with our First Nations people at that time.  It would have been a wonderful, wonderful thing to be able to do.

Tom Clark:

What was your worst moment in politics?

Peter Stoffer:

There was a time when I was the defence critic and Elsie Wayne has moved a motion to increase the defence spending. She didn’t say any amount.  It could have been 25 cents for all that matter but I was defence critic and said we should support that initiative because of the fact that the defence budget was woefully inadequate, and my party at that time was pushing for it, others within the party to vote against it.  And so I sat that one out.  And it was the first time that I’ve ever sat a vote out, not to sort of have a fight within the party and that I did not like.  And I learned from that and I never did it again.  I just said, this is wrong, I should be voting, and I should have the courage to stand up to the party and do that.  At that time, I was still a fairly new MP and I didn’t understand the whole party aspect of it but I learned from that and I’ve never done it again.  So that was my worst time.

Tom Clark:

You’ve lived in three very distinct parts of this country.  You’ve been up in the Yukon.  You’ve been out in British Columbia and now of course you’re from Nova Scotia.  So let me ask the tough question, what’s your favourite part of the country?

Peter Stoffer:

The Yukon, but the most… the Yukon…

Tom Clark:

Do you want me to cut out that out for the folks in Nova Scotia?

Peter Stoffer:

No, no.  Those who lived in the Yukon and those who are there now know how beautiful it is.  But I’m going to be very honest with you.  To me, the most beautiful spot in all of Canada is Twillingate, Newfoundland and Labrador.

Tom Clark:

What is your favourite bit of music?

Peter Stoffer:

Bob Dylan.

Tom Clark:

What’s your favourite song?

Peter Stoffer:

My favourite song is Desolation Row on Highway 61.  By the way, the greatest album of all times.

Tom Clark:

Why is Desolation Row your favourite song?

Peter Stoffer:

You just listen to the words.  That’s all I gotta say.

Bob Dylan’s Desolation Row song playing:  And the Good Samaritan, he’s dressing.  He’s getting ready for the show.  He’s going to the carnival tonight.  On Desolation Row.

Tom Clark:

I’m going to do this to get the sun out of your face.  You’ve been known on both sides of the aisle in the House of Commons as a person who is absolutely seized with the lives of veterans of this country both living and dead.  Why is that?

Peter Stoffer:

Well I was born in the Netherlands and my mom and dad were liberated by the Canadians and her allies back in ’44, ’45, and they told me every single thing what happened during the war.  The birth of my brother, the death of my other brother at two days old, the birth of my sister, my dad taken away for two years in a work detail camp, my mother having to go to various agencies for food, and then the liberation by the Americans of Lindburg at that time, and then my dad liberated by the Canadians.  And then in ’56 my dad’s… after they shut the coal mines of Southern Holland were closing down, the only answer was out migration and we could have gone to the States, Zimbabwe, New Zealand, Australia etc., but they chose Canada because my dad said that they have a military like that, can you imagine what kind of country they come from.  Ever since then, I’ve attended Remembrance Day ceremonies. I’ve been members of a legion for many years and Anavets Hall as well and I just find the men and women who serve our country and that of the RCMP as well, and many others, firefighters, police officers, those who wear a uniform every day to protect us and look after my family and my friends.  They are a very special breed of people and I admire them and love them dearly for what they do and their sacrifice and their families as well.  I greatly appreciate what they do for our country.

Tom Clark:

That’s your political mission?

Peter Stoffer:

Yes, sir.

Tom Clark:

Would you ever consider a coalition with the Liberals?

Peter Stoffer:

Well if after the next campaign, if the NDP and Liberals have the majority of seats to form a government, I don’t see why we can’t do something we did in ’72 when Pierre Trudeau and David Lewis.

Tom Clark:

That wasn’t really a coalition though.  That was more an agreement.

Peter Stoffer:

A working agreement, sort of like what happened in England. But I’m hoping we will be successful and form a majority ourselves.  Why not?

Tom Clark:

Why not?

Peter Stoffer: