THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 29, Season 5
Sunday, April 3, 2016
Host: Tom Clark
Guests: Kevin Rudd, Robin Sears, Rick Anderson, Lindsay Doyle
Plane Talk: Celina Caesar-Chavannes
Location: Ottawa
Tom Clark: On this Sunday, the government keeps saying that Canada is back, but does the rest of the world think so? We’ll ask former Australian Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd.
Political fundraising: In Ontario, donors and lobbyists are paying thousands of dollars to wine and dine the politicians. And this happens right across the country, but should it? We put that to three political insiders.
And, we do some ‘Plane Talk’ with Justin Trudeau’s parliamentary secretary, rookie MP, Celina Caesar-Chavannes.
It is Sunday, April the 3rd and from the nation’s capital, I’m Tom Clark. And you are in The West Block.
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Tom Clark: Well Prime Minister Justin Trudeau spent last week in Washington at the Nuclear Security Summit. It’s just one of many stops that he and his cabinet ministers have made, as they crisscross the globe with the message that Canada is back. Well, is it? And if so, how much is that going to cost?
Joining me now is the 26th prime minister of Australia, currently serving as the president of the Asia Society Policy Institute in New York. I’m talking of course about Kevin Rudd. Mr. Rudd welcome. Thanks very much for being here.
Kevin Rudd: Good to be back in Ottawa.
Tom Clark: Because so much your life has obviously been on Australia, but you’ve cast your glance worldwide, specifically to Canada many, many times in your political career. You know the government here now says that Canada is back on the world stage. You’re on the world stage. Is Canada back, and if so, how?
Kevin Rudd: Well, the simple answer is yes. And as I said to the Canadian foreign minister this week here in Ottawa, we’re not just trying to make it sound good for you guys and say sweet things in your ear. The truth is there’s a genuine excitement in the international community about a more activist Canada in the forums of the global community, including the United Nations, and I think people are looking forward to that stronger Canadian voice. It’s not to say there was not a Canadian voice under the previous government. I worked very closely with former foreign minister Baird, etc., and there were good things done there. But, I’ve got to say the reaction across the world if they’re looking for, now, greater Canadian activism on the UN itself and critical areas like climate change.
Tom Clark: Let me ask you about the UN because the new prime minister in this country has said that he would like to make a run at getting a seat on the Security Council in the next number of years. What does Canada have to do to win that vote to get a seat on the Security Council?
Tom Clark: Just before we leave the United Nations, I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask you this question. There’s been a lot of rumours swirling around that you might be interested in becoming, at some point, the secretary general of the United Nations. Are you?
Tom Clark: But sometime in the future, is this something you’d like to do?
Kevin Rudd: I think it’ll be an Eastern European rotation.
Tom Clark: You’ve still learned from those days as prime minister. I want to go into another area that you’ve developed an enormous amount of expertise on and I’m talking about China. Not only did you serve diplomatically in China, but you spearheaded a lot of the most important initiatives between Australia and China, notably the Free Trade Agreement now taking affect between your two countries. Canada has always had this problem, I guess as many countries have had, about where do you put your emphasis, is it on human rights or is it on economic potential and how do you balance those things out? Prime Minister Trudeau at some point this year is going to be going to China to open up a new chapter in Canada-Chinese relations. What would your advice be?
Kevin Rudd: Well, let me give you some reflections of if it was me running Australia at this time. I don’t believe in giving public advice to my colleagues. We’re dealing with this complex reality of a government led by President Xi Jinping, which is essentially a state capitalist model. An increasingly open economy and still with some areas which are hard to get access to. But effectively, a Leninist political system where it is a one party state under the Chinese Communist Party, which will always restrict what’s permissible in terms of public discussion on the future role of the party. That’s the reality we’re all dealing with. And so what we’ve tried to do Down Under is deal with this complex reality by walking and chewing gum at the same time. And that is, yes we have political differences with our Chinese friends. Yes, from time to time we’ll have foreign policy disagreements with our Chinese friends. Yes, we’ll want comprehensive economic engagement and yes, we support a free-trade agreement. On the free-trade agreement, and whatever Canada chooses to do on that front is a matter for Canada. My only advice to anyone negotiating a free-trade agreement with our Chinese friends is China has produced some of the toughest negotiators in the world on trade, so be tough.
Tom Clark: Kevin Rudd what a great pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for coming in.
Kevin Rudd: Good to be back in Canada.
Tom Clark: Well still to come, ‘Plane Talk’ with Justin Trudeau’s parliamentary secretary, Celina Caesar-Chavannes. But first, the costs of wining and dining politicians. Who gains from buying access to the political elite? That’s next.
Tom Clark: Welcome back. Well money, as it is said, is the lifeblood of politics, but how you get it and from whom is the stuff of both legend and of course scandal. A lot of the money is raised through so-called ‘pay to play.’ In other words, you put down a lot of money, you get into a private meeting with senior politicians. But is selling that sort of access going over the line? I’m going to talk to three individuals who know this dilemma from the inside: Robin Sears, formerly with the New Democrats, Rick Anderson who has worked for the Conservatives, and Lindsay Doyle who has worked for the Liberals. Welcome to you all.
Lindsay, let me start with you. The essence of the complaint about fundraising for parties is that money buys influence, that money changes ideas. So the simple question is from the inside, can you buy a politician?
Lindsay Doyle: I don’t think so. And in fact, I can tell you it would make a lot of people’s jobs a lot easier if that was the case. I think that this is certainly a natural conversation that is happening that needs to happen every once in a while as the political landscape shifts, and certainly as a conversation around fundraising shifts. I think it was great for both Premier Clark and Premier Wynne (to) acknowledge that changes should be made, and both committing to make those changes.
Tom Clark: Well, let me interrupt though because Premier Wynne committed to making changes after stories were in the Toronto newspapers talking about cabinet ministers in the Kathleen Wynne government who were given specific targets of how much money to raise, $500,000 dollars in the case of one cabinet minister.
Lindsay Doyle: Um-hum, and when we look at those cabinet ministers, and let’s not forget that those are also senior party officials. They are rock stars in their own parties and so when it comes to fundraising, it’s not uncommon to use those individuals and all three parties would use them. You’ve got Premier Notley flying to Ontario to help Andrea Horwath. That kind of thing has happened for a really long time whether provincially or federally. So I think that if you take a step back again, I know that the stories came out this week, but again, that’s the system that’s been created and that’s been upheld by all three provincial parties. It’s been upheld by parties both in Ontario and in British Columbia. So again, for the government to come forward and say we acknowledge that there might be something that needs to change, we might need to reassess the situation, they’ve never been pushed by the Opposition parties up until now, so that’s a little bit ironic.
Tom Clark: Rick, one of the advantages of having no Conservative party in power in Canada is that you can’t be blamed for provincial laws relating to fundraising.
Rick Anderson: Thanks, Tom.
Tom Clark: But to give the Conservatives their due, although it was Jean Chrétien federally who really restricted fundraising in a major way, it was Stephen Harper that took the ball across the line in terms of banning donations from corporations or from unions. Is this the model that should be simply followed by everybody in this country at every provincial level?
Rick Anderson: I think in large part, yes. It’s one of the cleanest models of political financing you can find in the western world. It’s surprising to me that the provinces have still got, not just corporate contributions allowed, but significant ones allowed and they’re being used for these kinds of private sessions with premiers. I think the problem exists on three levels. First of all, there’s a perceptual problem that the public looks at this and says ‘these are cozy little get-togethers and only for people with a certain amount of money,’ and that contributes to the cynicism that’s out there about politics, and I think understandably. Secondly, the really are getting access. You can say it’s buying access, well it is. It’s buying access. There’s 20 people, 30 people in a room and you get some time with the premier. You’re going to get something to say about some opportunity—
Tom Clark: But the fact that you give the premier $50,000 or $100,000 dollars, is that going to change the legislation?
Rick Anderson: No, I think that’s where, in Canada at least, people can be a bit more relaxed than say elsewhere in the world. As Lindsay said, I don’t think you actually can change policy in Canada for that kind of money. But you know Bernie Sanders is doing very, very well in the American campaign trail, suggesting that there’s an unholy alliance between money and politics in the States. And I think he’s not completely wrong about that.
Tom Clark: Well let me go to Robin on that.
Rick Anderson: But there’s a much , much bigger scale of contributions permitted in various ways in the American system, as you know.
Tom Clark: When we look at the provincial system, the spotlight was on Ontario, on the Ontario Liberals last week. But B.C. is in the same kettle as Ontario is in. If money is the lifeblood of politics and if politicians can’t be bought, then what’s wrong? Why bother banning these get-togethers?
Robin Sears: Because it’s always a spectrum, Tom, of course. You know if you give me a dollar, I’m not going to be even rented for very long. If you gave me a million dollars, would it tempt me to do something I shouldn’t otherwise do? More likely.
Rick Anderson: That’s Bernie Sanders’ point.
Robin Sears: That’s the dilemma here. It’s not a light switch, it’s a spectrum. But what I find fascinating about this is: why now? This system has been in effect in Ontario, I was there when it was created, for 50 years. It was a huge reform when it was created. Prior to this system, I could literally give you a briefcase with a million dollars in it and it would be a secret between you and me forever, no one ever knew. So, I think the values of society change over time. People’s expectations change over time. But I think, as well, the Liberals with respect, got a little greedy in British Columbia and Ontario, and they started to tollgate. They’d become a little bit more like pay to play. People were being told you have to give. And I remember when Rachel Notley was elected going out to Calgary and talking to guys in the oil patch out there about how they felt. The number one issue they raised was how bitterly angry they were about the fundraising that they were subject to by the Tories. They hated it. There was one senior oil guy said to me, they never called, except when a cheque was late.
Tom Clark: And, you’re not the only one who heard those stories. I heard them too, especially in Calgary, people saying that they were hit up all the time by the PCs, but only when they needed money. Listen, I want to change to another topic and that is talking about Tom Mulcair, because next weekend, the NDP are going to be meeting in Edmonton. The show is going to be there. But the real business of that convention is going to be whether Tom Mulcair gets another chance at political life. Does he stay in as the leader because there will be a leadership vote. And Lindsay, very briefly, one of the problems is political leaders rarely know when it’s time to go. Is it time for Tom Mulcair to go?
Lindsay Doyle: I get very sensitive about my response for this for a variety of reasons. For the first time sitting around this table, I actually have some clarity around who my leader is and we have had the same leader for quite some time. We will for as long as Mr. Trudeau chooses to stay. So I am sensitive to my comments around that because it is very much a family matter. So it is up the NDP what they do with their leader and how they decide to approach things with Mr. Mulcair. I think Mr. Mulcair is a smart man and he will see the writing on the wall. He has a smart team around him. Whether he should have gone after the election, I don’t necessarily think that that would have been the right approach because it was a bit of a devastating loss for the NDP and to lose your leader at the same time is challenging and you do need that kind of direction. Whether he chooses to stay for the next election though is a different question.
Tom Clark: Yeah, but let me ask Robin this question because Tom Mulcair was voted in as leader, not to produce another moral victory for the NDP. His job was to produce a political victory. At this point, the NDP is at their lowest point in the public opinion polls that they’ve been in years. They’re down around 12 per cent. When you add those things up, although the NDP have always been generous to former leaders who lose elections, in this case, is the dynamic a little bit different?
Robin Sears: I don’t think so and here’s why. Leadership is about building a brand and the party’s invested four or five years in building this brand. To start all over again with a brand new brand, as the Liberals discovered three times in a row after Paul Martin, can be very tough and very painful. I think it’s up to Tom to demonstrate that he has a vision that will take them to a higher and better place. And I do not suggest that means victory necessarily, but certain a very significant increase from where they landed. And then the voters will make their judgement. I think the risk of going into a leadership contest now is three-fold. One, the Tories are about to go into their, better to wait to see what they do. You don’t want to compete with them during their leadership because they’ll have a lot more blood on the floor and get a lot more attention than you will. And number three; leaderships always leave a lot of unhappy feeling.
Tom Clark: Rick, your party doesn’t have a choice in this matter; leadership campaign is going to start. You’ve got a convention coming up at the end of May. Very quick question for you, it is enough for the Conservatives just to replace the leader or do you have to start replacing or rethinking the policies of the past?
Rick Anderson: Well, it’s both obviously. Not just because certain policies had worn out their welcome with the Canadian public, but because generational changes, generational changed. The issue agenda changes and times call for a different leader. Rona Ambrose is already shifting in some important areas, the party’s tone and approach to particular issues. So we already see a kind of transition underway, and I expect that whoever the new leader is will have their own imprint to put on things policy-wise.
Tom Clark: Okay. Yeah, politicians, the leaders tend to define what the party becomes and I think that’s the point. Robin Sears, Rick Anderson and Lindsay Doyle thank you very much for sitting around the table this morning. Appreciate your time.
Robin Sears: Good to be here.
Tom Clark: Thank you very much.
Well coming up next, from picking through garbage cans to the prime minister’s parliamentary secretary. A little ‘Plane Talk’ with Celina Caesar-Chavannes, coming up next.
Tom Clark: Welcome back. Well not too long ago, politics was the furthest thing from the mind of Celina Caesar-Chavannes. But the entrepreneur from Whitby, Ontario was swept up by Justin Trudeau’s political message and not only did she win in a riding, but the rookie MP was rocketed into the job of parliamentary secretary to the prime minister. She joined me recently for a little bit of ‘Plane Talk’. Here it is:
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: I’m not touching—so please don’t say ‘Take the wheel! Take the wheel!’
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: No, no.
Tom Clark: Well, Celina Caesar-Chavannes, thank you very much for being on ‘Plane Talk’.
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Thank you for having me.
Tom Clark: Now you may know how this works. I ask you a couple of questions. We get to know you a little bit. We get to know about who you are and what you’re thinking.
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Okay.
Tom Clark: There was a time when you were about as poor as somebody could possibly be.
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yeah.
Tom Clark: What was that experience like?
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Looking back, it’s totally different. But at the time, it was the worst feeling ever. So I had my Bachelor of Science degree, I had an MBA. My husband had his master’s degree. He has his bachelor’s degree, and we still weren’t able to make ends meet. And that for me was sickening.
Tom Clark: And how bad did it get?
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: I lived in Ajax. On Monday night it’s garbage night. So on garbage night we’d go out and we put our hands on whatever we’d find that was good. I remember finding a hutch and we’d go home and sand it and then varnish it with a little bit of varnish and make it like brand new.
Tom Clark: How did you get out of that?
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: A lot of prayer and a lot of faith. I started a company and of course the first year I wasn’t making any money. And my husband thankfully said—I wanted to get another job—he said no, no, no, I’ll get another job. You focus on the company. And he got a job at Home Depot. He got a night school teaching job. He was teaching during the day. And we focused on that company for a year and the first major cheque that we got was the down-payment to our home. And that day was euphoric. It was amazing.
Tom Clark: How did those tough, tough years that you had, how did that shape your politics?
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: When I think about politics and when I think about policy in particular, I’m thinking of the person that needs this change the most. The person who is struggling, the person who is, the family who is just not able to get by and the family who needs our help and those experiences allowed me to better empathize with individuals who are struggling.
Tom Clark: Do you ever want to become prime minister?
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: During the by-election in June of 2014, I was about to become the candidate or I had become the candidate and my then 15-year-old daughter was doing Civics in summer school. And she would come home with her Civics notes and be teaching me. She’d be like here mom. So prime minister might be a little bit of a stretch for someone who last was letting her 16-year-old daughter’s grade 10 Civics notes.
Tom Clark: You told me when we got in the plane that under no circumstances were you going to try and fly the plane.
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yeah, but that was the test.
Tom Clark: That was then.
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: That was then. This is now.
Tom Clark: Okay. Okay now we’re going to turn to the left, so it’s a little bit of left pedal. Nicely done.
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: OK, hold on.
Tom Clark: You’re doing well. Look at that.
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Oh my God.
Tom Clark: And then you straighten it out.
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yeah. Now don’t worry. Don’t worry.
Tom Clark: You got it.
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Ah, there we go. You know what? I’m a natural.
Tom Clark: Yeah, you are. You’re very good at this.
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Oh, I love it. See this is what I’m going to do. I want to get some flying lessons.
Tom Clark: You’re originally from Grenada.
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yes sir, the island of spice.
Tom Clark: It is indeed. Now, has that influenced your choice of the music that you like?
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: No.
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: I listen to everything. I have a very eclectic music collection. My favourite artist, much to the chagrin of my father because he likes Reggae and Soca music, is Prince. I love him.
Tom Clark: Okay, and your favourite Prince song?
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: You know I was not expecting to have fun. I expected to be clutching onto the side by the time you landed and have my DNA imprinted into your skin. You know going oh my God, get me out of here. Crawling onto the side.
Tom Clark: But basically, you hijacked my airplane.
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yeah, I love. I loved it.
Tom Clark: Well Celina Caesar-Chavannes, thank you very much for being on ‘Plane Talk’.
Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Aw, thank you for having me on ‘Plane Talk’. I appreciate it.
Tom Clark: Well that is our show for today. Next week, The West Block will be in Edmonton at the NDP Convention. But before we leave you today, we want to take a moment to remember Jean Lapierre, a good friend of mine and a political force of nature. He was a politician and a pundit, who died in a plane crash last week along with several members of his family; our deepest condolences to his loved ones. Thanks for joining us today. I’m Tom Clark. See you next week.
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