WATCH: The full broadcast of The West Block from Dec. 7, 2014.
THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 13, Season 4
Sunday, December 7, 2014
Host: Tom Clark
Guest Interviews: Preston Manning, Mark Kennedy, Dave Lewis, James Lewis, Elizabeth May
Location: Ottawa
*** please check against delivery via the video above or audio below.
On this Sunday, the big Green shift: Conservative icon breaks ranks and calls for a price on carbon, as well as all other energy sources. It’s time he says, “To save the planet.”
Invisible armies are quietly surrounding our key installations, and countries like China are now able to shut down the North American electrical grid. What’s our next move?
And, taking to the skies with the leader of Canada’s Green Party: Elizabeth May joins me in The West Block aircraft for some “plane talk”and some surprising revelations.
It is Sunday, December the 7th and from the nation’s capital, I’m Tom Clark. And you are in The West Block.
Climate leaders and politicians from around the world are gathering in Lima, Peru this week, to set additional goals on greenhouse gas emissions. The secretary general of the United Nationsmeantime is calling specifically on Canada,to do more on climate change; focus less on fossil fuels and more on green energy.
Well joining me now from Calgary is Preston Manning, the founder and CEO of the Manning Centre for Building Democracy, and an advisor to a new group called, The Eco-Fiscal Commission. Mr. Manning welcome to the show. The secretary general is calling on Canada to do more. What is the single most important thing that Canada should be doing right now?
Preston Manning:
Well this Eco-Fiscal Commission, you can approach this problem, as you know Tom, at different levels. The UN is looking at it from an international level and that puts pressure on the national, all the governments; the federal governments. But as I understand this Eco-Fiscal Commission they want to focus more on the local dimensions and the provincial dimensions of integrating economic development and environmental conversation. And the approach they’re going to take, which gets to what’s the single most important thing you can do, is to try to come at these problems not through massive government intervention and micro-regulation of the lives of individuals and firms and households, but to try to harness pricing mechanisms. Road pricing, water pricing, carbon pricing, garbage pricing, to addressing this problem of integrating both economy and environmental conservations. As I understand it, that’s their focus, local and provincial, and pricing mechanisms asthe way to achieve that integration.
Tom Clark:
Well when you said carbon pricing, of course that’s the thing that got everybody’s eyebrows raised, when Preston Manning comes out and says in effect, put a price on carbon, which comes close to a carbon tax. And I understand you don’t like the terminology, but if there is a price on carbon, and I understand your idea is that it should be on all forms of energy, I guess my question is this, what do we do with the money then from that pricing?
Preston Manning:
Well ideally, it should go back into financing innovations to deal with the environmental impacts that it’s attempting to reduce. Like the broader concept behind it Tom and I think it’s important to state the broader concept because it shows its range of application is that for every economic activity, we should identify what are the negative environmental impacts, and then devise measures to avoid or mitigate or cope with those measures. And then increase the cost… or include the costs of the measures into the price of the product. And the revenue that’s generated ideally should be directed into innovations to deal with the environmental impacts that you are trying to reduce. And whether those dollars should be in the hands of the government, whether they should be in the hands of some agency that’s an innovation stimulator or left in the hands of the companies, that’s one of the interesting questions that these economists that are part of the Eco-Fiscal Commission are going to deal with.
Tom Clark;
At the risk of getting too political on this though Preston, isn’t that pretty well exactly what former Liberal Leader, Stéphan Dion was campaigning on two elections ago; the Green shift which was changing the tax burden from income to energy consumption?
Preston Manning:
No, I think that Green shift, with all due respect to Stéphan, and I know he’s sincere, probably did more to set this concept back by 10 years than it did to advance it, partly because it was the wrong source to be communicating that. And secondly, because that scheme proposed using these revenues that would be generated by environmental levies for other purposes other than just trying to reduce the negative environmental impacts. So I think what this Eco-Fiscal Commission is going to do, and it consists of a group of nine economists, and then an advisory group. And I’m just part of the advisory group, I’m not one of the economists,are trying to take a step back and see is there not some way of coming at this issue in a more realistic and forward looking way, not looking backward but looking forward.
Tom Clark:
We’ve only got a minute left Preston, but I’m wondering two things. First of all, how have you dealt with the Conservative blowback from this because you know the question is, who’s out of step, Preston Manning or the Conservative army? But the other things is, what do you say to the people of Alberta, many of whom think that their future depends on getting that oil out of the ground, and they might look at this as not a betrayal, but as a way of stopping that progression. What do you say to them?
Preston Manning:
Well I’d say, what’s the biggest obstacle to getting Alberta petroleum from Alberta to market? The biggest obstacle today is not financial, it’s not technological. The biggest single obstacle is this concern about the environmental impacts. So I say if your primary concern is to move that petroleum to international markets, the American market, then let’s deal more effectively and positively with these negative environmental impacts, which are the biggest obstacle to that objective. And there are a lot of Albertans that have come around to that conclusion. And there are a lot of Conservatives who see a link between conservation and conservatism. There is nothing incompatible there.
Tom Clark:
Preston Manning, always good talking to you. Thanks very much for taking the time today.
Preston Manning:
Thanks Tom.
Tom Clark:
So, what are the politics of what Preston Manning is saying? Well joining me now, Mark Kennedy, parliamentary bureau chief for the Ottawa Citizen. You know, listening to Preston Manning makes me think of Kermit the Frog and his expression, “It’s not easy being green.” But here you’ve got this Conservative icon preaching a Green message inside a party that’s already said we don’t want any carbon tax. What’s this going to do to the Conservative party?
Mark Kennedy:
We’ll let’s see if it splits them…let’s see…we’ll have to give it some time, but you knowthat was a remarkable interview because as I thought to myself, if you had Stephen Harper in that chair, the answers he would have been giving to your questions would have been dramatically different. And the irony is that it was Preston Manning many years ago, back in the 1980’s who brought a very young Stephen Harper into the world of politics, first as his chief policy advisor, then encouraging him, persuading him, cajoling him to run as a Reform MP. Once they got into Ottawa, of course they didn’t get along very well then, and the interesting thing now is, that all these years later, you know I think out there in Conservative land, whether it be hard right Conservatives or Progressive Conservatives, Blue Tories if you will, they look to Preston Manning as someone they respectfor principle because he is a man of policy. And I think what some of them might fear is that right now, is that Stephen Harper isn’t adopting the principles that once got him into politics.
Tom Clark:
And you know, what’s interesting is that the oil companies are more or less singing the same tune as Preston Manning. They’ve already factored in the idea of carbon pricing. And in fact, late last week, the president of Kinder-Morgan came out in favour of the idea of putting a price on carbon. So it’s beginning to look as if maybe the Conservative army at least Stephen Harper’s army may be out of step, but how much of an issue is that going to be in an election campaign because it’s not really showing up in the polls yet?
Mark Kennedy:
It’s not, but you know, there will be a meeting in Paris at the end of this year where all of the international
Tom Clark:
In 2015…
Mark Kennedy:
Sorry in the end of 2015, but that’s just potentially three months after an election campaign. Throughout the entire year, countries are going to be putting pressure on this country, StephenHarper because he’ll be prime minister, to come to the table with ideas and initiatives that will amount to reducing greenhouse gases.
Tom Clark:
And Ban Ki-Moon, Secretary General of the United Nations already started saying that.
Mark Kennedy:
Precisely, all it takes is another hurricane in the middle of the summer of 2015 and for people to stand up potentially and say aha climate change is a problem. In that campaign, whether it’s the spring of 2015 will see a dramatic contrast between what the Liberals and the New Democrats are proposing, and I think between what Conservative leader, Stephen Harper will be proposing, and in the background, you’ve now got Preston Manning saying, do the right thing.
Tom Clark:
It’s going to be fascinating to see what happens to this subject and because it is happening internally in the Conservative movement now. Mark Kennedy always good talking to you.
Mark Kennedy:
Great to be here.
Tom Clark:
Thanks very much, Mark.
Well coming up, the threat of cyber-attacks. How bad is it and who should we be watching?
Break
New clips:
Brian Wilson: Tonight, the FBI is on the case and they are warning big companies and America to protect their data.
Male Reporter: The FBI is investing that destructive cyber-attack at Sony Pictures.
Dawn Friezen: It’s being called a malicious breach of taxpayer data and you could be one of the hundreds of Canadians who have been hit by it.
Admiral Michael Rogers: I don’t think there should be any doubt in anybody’s mind that the cyber challenges we’re talking about are not theoretical. This is something real.
Tom Clark:
It’s an invisible threat and the results can be disastrous. Here at home, the watchdog monitoring cyber threats says that the government faces millions of cyber intrusion attempts every day. A new study says a large number of Canadian firms are not prepared for a cyber-attack. The head of the US Cyber Command told Congress last month that it will take government, the private sector, and academia all working together to prevent the next dramatic attack. More information stolen, more sensitive documents leaked, even the potential to shut down a country’s basic infrastructure.
Admiral Michael Rogers: This is something real that is impacting our nation and those of our allies and friends every day. It has the potential to lead to some truly significant almost catastrophic failures if we don’t take action.
Tom Clark:
So, how big a threat is this to you and your country? Well joining me now from Toronto is Dave Lewis of Akamai Technologies, specialising in cyber security and from Washington,Jim Lewis, a cyber-warfare expert at the Centre for Strategic and International Studies. Welcome to you both.
James let me start with you, we just watched Admiral Mike Rogers of the National Security Agency warning that China, Iran, Russian and perhaps others now have the ability to shut down. Literally shut down North America. How real is that threat?
James Lewis:
It’s something they could do if they chose to do it, and it might be time to add the North Koreans to that list. Unfortunately, the electrical grid is not as well protected as we might hope. Some companies do a good job, others don’t, and these countries have gotten into networks, had the ability to disrupt services to turn off electricity, and perhaps even at the high end, cause physical destruction.
Tom Clark:
Dave, while they have the ability, I guess part of the question is do they have the motivation? We haven’t had the sort of catastrophic attack yet. Do you think that’s just around the corner?
Dave Lewis:
I don’t think that’s really a problem at this point in time. I think the real concern is actually more along the lines of the infrastructure that we currently have in place and something along the lines of a very large storm causing more damage. I would be more concerned about that than I would about a cyber-attack. That being said, there is a lot more than can be done to better secure the power systems in Canada.
Tom Clark:
Jim, do you see it the same way?
James Lewis:
Yeah, it’s not that Vladimir Putin will wake up in a bad mood one morning and say I’m going to turn off the lights in North America. This is another weapon for these countries and they will use it the way they think about aircraft or missiles. If we’re not in a war with them, a cyber-attack is very unlikely. If we do get into a shooting match, even then, they might not go after domestic targets; targets in North America. So it is a distant probability but that doesn’t mean that they couldn’t do it if they chose to.
Tom Clark:
And Dave, I guess the other part is that if it’s not going to be a state actor taking these actions, surely people like yourself and governments in the western world must wonder, what about the terrorists? What about any non-state actor with the same abilities, should we be concerned about that?
Dave Lewis:
I would actually be more concerned with the activists as well as the bored teenagers that are out there. They have the time and the material that they can actually sit down and go after these various resources, but they don’t have necessarily the training that would cause me concern for them to actually hit where it would actually hurt.
Tom Clark:
You know, a question to both of you, what we do know though, from at least the Canadian government, and I’m sure it’s exactly the same in other western governments; we have, according to the cyber watchdog in this country, about a million incursions a day, people trying to either maliciously hack or by accident hack into government accounts. We haven’t seen the catastrophic hit yet, but what are we losing in terms of theft? Theft of our technologies, theft of competitive information for private companies, isn’t that, or is that a greater concern to our ability to keep our economy going than the catastrophic attack? Jim do you want to start?
James Lewis:
Sure, it’s the idea of economic espionage and financial crime is that these have accumulative effects that will damage economies, and we haven’t seen that yet. That’s not to say though we should enjoy other countries, in particular China and Russia, routinely violating our laws. And China is the leader in economic espionage. They do use it for commercial advantage. Russian groups are the leaders in financial crime. They do use it to extract money. It’s not the end of the world. I don’t think it does immediate damage to the economy, but it does put Canadian companies, US companies, western European companies at a competitive disadvantage. The former head of the British Security Service once told an audience of businessmen that if you enter into a negotiation with China, you should expect to be hacked for them to get your playbook, for them to know your bottom line. And that’s something no country wants to tolerate.
Tom Clark:
Dave let me switch this over to you because whether it is a state act or whether it’s terrorist, or as you suggest, the greatest danger comes from bored teenagers sitting in basements. I guess the question is, what do we do about it and how concerned should the individual Canadian be by the fact that not only state data and company data, but perhaps personal data too is greatly at risk?
Dave Lewis:
Well, for the citizen at large, they can do a lot to protect their systems. Something as simple in making sure that their system at home is patched. A great deal of the incursions that we’ve seen has been simply wrapped around systems that weren’t properly patched and up to date and weren’t even having necessary protections on them like anti-virus or a firewall.
Tom Clark:
What about governments though?
Dave Lewis:
For government, particularly Canadian government is working on an initiative called Shared Services Canada, and I think that’s anexcellent vehicle for them to actually do a better job because what they’re going to do, harmonize the infrastructure for all the different ministries. And this can now simplify and better secure the infrastructure. So I see that as very much a positive.
Tom Clark:
Okay so putting them all into one basket and then protecting that one basket. Gentlemen, we’re out of time but a fascinating insight as to what’s going on. Jim Lewis at CSIS in Washington and Dave Lewis of Akamai Technologies in Toronto thanks very much for joining in the conversation.
James Lewis:
Thank you.
Dave Lewis:
Thank you.
Tom Clark:
Up next, the return of“plane talk”: the only political interview that takes you to the skies.
Break
Tom Clark:
Welcome back. Elizabeth May, environmentalist, writer, lawyer and Leader of the Green Party of Canada. She’s also an “aerophobic”. That means she’s got a fear that she faces every week, flying to and from her riding, and one she agreed to face again for a bit of “plane talk.”Take a look.
Tom Clark:
We’re ready to go.
Elizabeth May:
Oh, okay.
Tom Clark:
Okay.
Elizabeth May:
I thought we were stalling. It made me nervous. Everything is going to make me nervous, just so you know.
It’s nice to have a different perspective on the Parliament Buildings.
Tom Clark:
Elizabeth May, what’s been your greatest political moment?
Elizabeth May:
May 2nd, 2011 when I won the seat to Saanich–Gulf Islands and all my supporters were cheering, and we were over the moon.
Tom Clark:
What was your worst political moment?
Elizabeth May:
May 2nd, 2011, when I found out, just before I found out that I’d won…actually a while before when the media says we of course have a blackout on coverage of what’s happening across the country, and a reporter put a microphone in my face and said what do you think of a Harper majority? And I said that can’t happen.
Tom Clark:
What’s the greatest threat to Canada right now?
Elizabeth May:
Well if Canada’s part of the world, then the greatest to the world is ignoring the climate crisis, allowing our kids to have to deal with something that they can no longer reverse.
Tom Clark:
On what occasions do you lie?
Elizabeth May:
Never about anything important, although I definitely, ha-ha…when a friends says how do you like my new haircut? And I say oh it suits you, it’s so cute. And I’m thinking, well it will grow out.
Tom Clark:
Okay, note to all friends of Elizabeth May who just had a haircut, you’ve heard her here, she won’t tell you the truth.
Elizabeth May:
No, I won’t.
Tom Clark:
Who are your greatest heroes in real life? Name one.
Elizabeth May:
A lot, a lot…
Tom Clark:
But if you had to choose one?
Elizabeth May:
Wow, one real life hero? Jesus. There you go.
Tom Clark:
Does that make up for lying to your friends about their haircuts?
Elizabeth May:
We’ll find out later.
Tom Clark:
What’s your single greatest regret in life?
Elizabeth May:
It’s that I didn’t spend time with my father when he still knew who was I was. And the specific regret, I made a big mistake one weekend. The press gallery dinner changed the date and we had had one date and it changed to another date, and you know the sort of Green Party themes and where you’ve got to come. And I was actually in Cape Breton…I was in Halifax enroute to drive up to Cape Breton to see my dad, and I made the wrong decision. I said okay, well I’ll come back, I’ll be there in time for press gallery dinner, which wasn’t important in the scheme of things really. And I didn’t know at that moment that there would be very, very few, like count on one hand the number of times I would be able to spend time with my father before dementia took over and he didn’t know who I was anymore. So that’s a really deep regret.
Tom Clark:
In the case the case that there is a minority government in the next election, would Elizabeth May and the Green party support a coalition to make sure that Stephen Harper didn’t come back into power?
Elizabeth May:
Actually my goal is, and our goal as a party, is to have enough seats to form balance power. We think it will be a minority Parliament. We want to work cooperatively with anyone and everyone to get rid of the first pass the post voting system to get to the kind of voting system that lets Canadians feel that every vote counts, which is important. And to deal with the climate crisis and at the same time build our economy more than we are now, create more jobs in the Green tax field.
Tom Clark:
Do you want to fly the plane?
Elizabeth May:
No, no, thank you very much though.
Tom Clark:
Oh come on.
Elizabeth May:
No, no, no, Tom, thank you very much.
Tom Clark:
You don’t want to do that?
Elizabeth May:
No, no, I don’t want to fly the plane. I’ll never…no, no. Thank you very much though. It’s such a sweet offer.
Tom Clark:
What would you do if you weren’t an MP?
Elizabeth May:
So if I change the question, what would I do if I didn’t feel I had to do what I’m doing because the climate crisis? I would love to focus on writing books that were not just about issues. I’ve written my eighth book just came out, and I love it, but I’d love to try my hand at murder mysteries.
Tom Clark:
You want to write murder mysteries?
Elizabeth May:
Absolutely, yes, I could have a very nice murder mystery set on Parliament Hill.
Tom Clark:
Who would be the bad guy?
Elizabeth May:
The person you least suspect.
Tom Clark:
You see that’s not fair.
Elizabeth May:
What? It would have to be Kevin Vickers.I love Kevin by the way, but yeah that would be a great murder mystery wouldn’t it?
Tom Clark:
We’re just about to land. Are you feeling lucky?
Elizabeth May:
Are you? Now we’ll be like the Canadian cabin in every airline. Yay! (Applause)
Tom Clark:
Well Elizabeth May got over her fear of flying because right after that interview, she hopped on a much bigger plane, flew down to Lima, Peru for the International Conference on Climate Change. If you want to see the full interview with Elizabeth May, go to www.globalnews.ca/thewestblock and there you’ll hear her assessment of Tom Mulcair, Stephen Harper, and Justin Trudeau. You’ll even find out who the hero of her book will be.
That’s The West Block for this week, I’m Tom Clark. See you back here next Sunday.
Comments