Transcript: Season 4, Episode 1

THE WEST BLOCK

Episode 1, Season 4

Sunday, September 14, 2014

Host: Vassy Kapelos in for Tom Clark

Guest Interviews: Fred Burton, Rick Hanson, Chris Boudreau, Mahdi Kaskas, Michael Zocoolon, Chantal Hébert

Location: Ottawa

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On this Sunday, the battle against Islamic extremism; our government calls it the greatest struggle of our generation.  How real is the threat posed by ISIS?

And then, Canadians picking up arms in the fight; what we’re doing to prevent radicalization.

And one mother’s loss; how she hopes to help other families cope.

Plus, these seats will be empty no more.  The start of a new session and the unofficial kick-off to the election in 2015:  what to expect.

It’s Sunday, September 14^th, I’m Vassy Kapelos sitting in for Tom Clark.  This is The West Block.

Well political wrangling will begin again on Parliament Hill tomorrow.  We want to start today with a look at an issue affecting governments around the world.  The threat posed by ISIS, both abroad and the danger it could pose here at home.

Before we start, here’s your West Block Primer:

ISIS has seized the world’s attention with tactics so brutal even Al-Qaeda disowned them.  And a well-organized propaganda wing with recruitment videos, even a glossy magazine.  The militants ignore international borders, capturing territory from the fringes of Aleppo in Eastern Syria to Fallujah in Southern Iraq.  They have declared it an Islamic State based on Sharia law.

President Obama:“If left unchecked, these terrorists could pose a growing threat beyond that region”.

The group has attracted thousands of foreign fighters from every corner of the world.

Male 1:

“The world would be a safer place if we could squeeze this organization out of existence”.

Canada is sending Special Forces, the US committing to more air strikes in Syria as well as Iraq.

We are joined now by one of the world’s leading authorities on security and terrorism.  Fred Burton is Vice President of Intelligence at Stratfor, a global intelligence firm based in Austin Texas.  Mr. Burton thanks so much for joining us.  I appreciate it.  There seems to be so much conflict in so many different corners of the world right now.  How real, in your view, is the threat of ISIS?

Fred Burton:

I think the threat is pretty much contained to the Middle East as well as Europe versus North America, and that’s due simply to volume and proximity and geography of ISIS operatives in the Middle East current.

Vassy Kapelos:

So what about the threat to us eventually? Do you think it will remain contained there?

Fred Burton:

I think for the most part, the biggest challenge facing the United States and Canada from ISIS are lone wolf sympathizer attacks.  If you look at this in context for the wonderful work that the FBI, the RCMP has done to combat the prevention of terrorism in North America, in many ways that threat has been pushed outward from the North American continent, and then if you look at the porous borders in Europe for example, where individuals have the ease of transport and can logistically move from let’s say France to the United Kingdom, that’s the real challenge for European Intelligence Services is monitoring those operatives as they move between countries in Europe.

Vassy Kapelos:

So how exactly do you do that?  Even over here we’ve had a lot of cases lately of that happening.  How do you monitor that?  For instance, are we approaching this in the right way?  We’re sending over Special Forces to act as advisors.  The US says it’s going to conduct air strikes.  Is this the right approach?

Fred Burton:

Well in essence what the public doesn’t see is the clandestine war that takes place.  This is the war that’s carried out by the CIA on the ground to develop assets, to target individuals, high value targets for drone assassinations and air strikes.  And it becomes really and intelligence challenge to keep track of these individuals as they move.  And in fairness to the European Services, there’s a tremendous amount of liaison and cooperation but the fear is, those individuals that could slip through the cracks and potentially carry out the kind of attack like we saw in Brussels where the individual walked in and just started people at the Jewish museum.  And those are the kinds of problems that are going to persist in our lifetime and there’s really very little that can be done to prevent those from occurring besides very aggressive and proactive security at soft targets.

Vassy Kapelos:

And just finally before we go, the Minister of Foreign Affairs in this country, John Baird says that, “Battling violent extremism is the greatest challenge of our generation”.  Do you agree with that assessment?

Fred Burton:

I think so, if you just look at the sheer numbers and volume of suspected ISIS members.  I’ve seen some media coverage coming out of Washington that puts the strength of ISIS in the 30,000 range.  I don’t know if that’s fact or fiction here at Stratfor, but at the end of the day, if you look at that kind of number, trying to keep tabs on that volume of personnel does become a logistical challenge for organizations such as the RCMP and the FBI, but one that’s not insurmountable.  Both of our countries have faced these kinds of threats in the past, and for the most part, our security and intelligence service does get it right.

Vassy Kapelos:

Well thanks very much for the perspective.  We really appreciate it.

Fred Burton:

Thank you for having me.

Vassy Kapelos:

So those lone wolves, as you heard, that’s the real threat back here at home and we know Canadians are becoming radicalized.  According to the latest federal report, more than 130 Canadians are abroad taking part in terrorist activities.  Another 80 have come back.

We are joined now by Public Safety Minister, Steven Blaneywho is in Israel for a Cyber Security conference.  Minister thanks so much for joining us.

Now those numbers come from you know months ago, how confident are you though that they are still accurate?  The situation is obviously very fluid.

Steven Blaney:

You’re right Vassy.  The situation is fluid. There is a growing concern among the law enforcement community of the phenomenon of radicalization.  That’s why we’ve been acting on this issue for years now, despite the lack of support of the Opposition.  That’s why we’ve moved forward with a Combat Terrorism Act.  As you know, we have already; individuals in Canada have been persecuted.  There are other inquiries that are ongoing, but this phenomenon is growing.  We know what’s going on now with the Islamic State.  This is a very serious…I’m concerned by the situation like many other Canadians.  That’s why we’ve taken strong action and we intend to stay the course the coming weeks and the coming months.

Vassy Kapelos:

We know there is a law in the books for people who leave or suspected terrorists who leave the country but what about when they come back?  What is your government prepared to do about that?

Steven Blaney:

Well as you know, we are already taking citizens back from an individual who has a dual citizenship.  That’s an initiative that was accomplished by my colleague, Minister Chris Alexander who is in charge of the citizenship, citizen law of this land.  As I’ve just indicated, we have the Combat Terrorism Act where we can prosecute and lay charges against those whether who are willing to commit a terrorist act abroad or those who are returning and we are also acting under prevention side, which is the most critical.  That’s why with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), we have mounted a counter violent extremism strategy which is aimed at targeting those individuals, those very individuals, not only targeting the community.  We’ve established many years ago our cross cultural table where we are talking with the leaders of a multi-ethnic community, inviting them to reach out and send strong and positive messages, but let’s be clear, if you are willing to use violence to reach your means, you will face the full force of the law.   And that’s why we are moving forward this fall with additional measures to better coordinate our effort to track those who are leaving the country, once they leave the country, and once they abroad and what they are doing.  We need to give more tools to our law enforcement agencies so they can protect Canadians and protect those individuals from the harm they could cause.

Vassy Kapelos:

But with all due respect sir, you say you are taking further actions this fall.  How far are you willing to go?  Are you willing the seize the passports of Canadian citizens because as we’ve seen over the past five or six weeks, we’ve seen a lot of high profile cases where you know things have escalated very quickly.  What are you prepared to do when people come back?  How far will you take it?

Steven Blaney:

We will go as far as it is needed to protect Canadians.  And the real thing Vassy is that those provisions are already in the criminal code.  It is up to the law enforcement and judges to remove a passport from an individual who threatened to leave the country or could be a threat to leave the country for terrorist measures.  So those provisions are already embedded in the criminal code and we will make sure that we are providing our law enforcement with the necessary tools to tackle with this growing threat for Canadians safety.  And we need to deal with this issue.  We are responsible when a Canadian is committing a terrorism act abroad.  We have to prevent this from happening.

Vassy Kapelos:

Okay than you very much for your time Minister Blaney. I appreciate it.

Steven Blaney:

Merci-beaucoup.  Au revoir.  Thank you.

Vassy Kapelos:

Let’s break that down for a minute.  As the minister pointed out, there is a law on the books to seize the passport of a Canadian attempting to leave the country to participate in terrorist activities, and to revoke Canadian citizenship from dual citizens who are convicted of terrorism, but many questions remain.  Will the government go so far as removing citizenship from a Canadian who is fighting overseas, leaving them stateless?  The minister also talked about more tools for law enforcement agencies to monitor and track individuals.  We don’t know though what those are.  And of course prevention; the RCMP is developing a program to identify individuals at risk early and prevent radicalization.  But so far, we don’t have any concrete details.

The Liberal Party wants to see the government hold hearings to study the issue and answer those very questions.

Coming up after the break, more voices from those at the very heart of it; a mother whose son died fighting for ISIS.  Calgary’s police chief and a community activist battling this on the ground.

Break

Vassy Kapelos:

Welcome back.  Over the past few months we’ve heard stories of Canadians becoming radicalized and leaving the country to pick up arms.  Many of the most recent cases are young men who lived in Calgary.  We headed there earlier this week to talk to those at the heart of the issue.

Chief Rick Hanson:

One of the things that was very vital to learn from our experience in Calgary, the just recent experience, was one of the mothers saying who do I call?  Where do I go for help? And if I need help, what’s it going to look like?

Vassy Kapelos:

Calgary police chief, Rick Hanson says he’s concerned with the recent rash of radicalism in his city.

Chief Rick Hanson:

“…Why it’s happening in Alberta and I think here is why it’s happening in Calgary because it is linked to money.  In order to operate, these groups need money”.

Vassy Kapelos:

Hanson and the police have banded forces with a group called 3Own, an Arabic word for “help”.  Mahdi Kaskas is a psychologist who founded the group.

Mahdi Kaskas:

“We said well time for us to own it. Own the narrative.  Own the story, beginning to end.

Vassy Kapelos:

3 Own has a culturally tailored approach for intervention for youth potentially at-risk of criminal radicalization.

Mahdi Kaskas:

Alienation, poor supervision, lack of programming, all of these factors we know from the evidence, they contribute to crime.

Vassy Kapelos:

Kaskas says early intervention is key but even those that come from fighting abroad can’t be ignored.

Mahdi Kaskas:

The idea of reintegration, now the public may not want to hear that we’re going to try to help reintegrate them.  But the public, or the Canadian public at least, I mean they need to recognize that these are our youth.  I mean no matter what the problem is.

Vassy Kapelos:

Michael Zocoolon says, “The distinction between Canadians vulnerable to being recruited and those who have gone overseas to fight is important”.  On a plan to counter the latter, he says, “Canada is playing catch up”.

Michael Zocoolon:

Do you want to prevent people from further becoming radicalized?  That’s going to be one prong.  The other prong is what do you do with individuals who are slightly radicalized? And what are the efforts to de-radicalize them?  Whether or not you can sort of adequately monitor and support and follow these people literally 24-7 becomes a problem.  We’re almost sort of figuring this out as we go.

Vassy Kapelos:

At the very least, it seems the government didn’t figure it out in time to stop the handful of Canadians we know traveled abroad and died fighting for extremists groups.

Joining us now is Chris Boudreau.  Her son, Damian Clairmontjoined the fighting in Syria and that’s where he died.  Chris thanks for being with us.  When CSIS knocked on your door and told you Damian was not where you thought he was, how did you react?

Chris Boudreau:

Well I didn’t know how to react.  I didn’t know if what I was hearing was the truth.  It was like I was thrown into some terrible movie.  It wasn’t even part of my life.  It was rather surreal.  And I was in complete shock.

Vassy Kapelos:

I can only imagine.  Earlier in this show, I’d like to get your perspective on something, we heard from Minister of Public Safety, Steven Blaney, and he talked about saying that anyone who intends to join a terrorist group or actually makes it abroad will face the full brunt of the law.  What do you think about the government taking that sort of hard line?

Chris Boudreau:

Well there are a couple of things with that.  I mean I think it’s terribly reactive and that’s not the way we should be.  We should be much more proactive, number one.  And number two:  these kids that are being brainwashed and radicalized, with that type of stance, they’re just feeding and fueling that fire, and exactly everything that they’re being told to expect.  So they’re increasingly the likelihood that these kids are even going to leave.

Vassy Kapelos:

So when the government talks about other things that they are doing, they’re working on a prevention piece I guess.  I’m just wondering, you know in the meantime, there’s sort of a vacuum created and I know you’re working on a project to sort of fill that vacuum.

Chris Boudreau:

Well that’s exactly what we’re trying to do.  The biggest part of it is supporting the families and trying to circle around them, council them and coach them, and so that they have the correct dialogue to use with those youths that are counter to what they’re expected to hear from their families and friends, and that helps to bring them back into the family.  And this type of program, and any type of situation like this, it’s best to be a team and a network.  So yesterday’s summit that we had for the Own It Conference was a perfect example of a group of people coming together, stepping forward, wanting to make a difference early on and be preventative and proactive.  And I’ve had some great responses already from several people who want to step up and work as a team to do exactly that.  I’m really proud to say that what I saw from Calgary yesterday was phenomenal.

Vassy Kapelos:

So when you talk about prevention, that’s certainly one aspect of it, but what about the people who do come back?  Do you think, given your experience, you know if your son had come back, he could have been reintegrated into society he could have been rehabilitated, de-radicalized even?

Chris Boudreau:

I think it’s a matter of how long they’re over there.  I noticed a change in him when I was talking to him.  You never can give up hope on a person.  Anybody can have a second change or a moment where they realize I’ve made a mistake and I need help. So we should at least give them the opportunity to, with safeguards in place, obviously you want to make sure that they’re not just making up an excuse to come back and cause harm.  So you’d have to be careful and put safeguards in place, but I definitely think that everybody should be given a chance and that we should try to work with them as best we can.

Vassy Kapelos:

And I know this hasn’t been easy on you or your family.  I guess what message or what advice do you have to parents who are watching, who have been listening to you and who have concerns about their own children?

Chris Boudreau:

Well I think the most important factor here is this is something that’s much too big and emotional for a family to take on by themselves, and I know there’s a lot of fear with regards to stigma and everything else, but these are our children, and sometimes you have to put those fears aside.  It’s really important that they try reaching out, whether it be the authorities or any other organizations, counsellors, somebody to help them start to work with those youths or get an idea, a risk assessment if there is really any big problems that they’re seeing, and they have an understanding.  Reaching out is the most important thing.  You can’t do this alone.

Vassy Kapelos:

Okay thank you so much.  Thanks for speaking up on this.  I appreciate it.

Chris Boudreau:

Thank you for having me.

Vassy Kapelos:

Coming up, we shift gears to the political season ahead.  MP’s will fill these seats tomorrow.  We’ll get Tom’s take on what to expect.

Break

Vassy Kapelos:

Welcome back. MP’s are back in Ottawa tomorrow and this session is shaping up to be nothing short of interesting.  Here’s Tom take:

Tom Clark:

So, peer with me into the crystal ball and all will be revealed.  Well, so much for psychic journalism but it is safe to say that things around here aren’t going to be same old, same old.

For starters, this place has to deal with this place.  The world is an unsettled and unsettling mess.  From the biggest new threat, the Islamic State terrorist group to Iran, to Putin, to Gaza and to well who knows what?

In a nanosecond, any of these people, places or events can change everything with the flick of a detonator.  And that always hangs over this.  But let’s imagine the best that Canadian politics is left to its own devices and disasters.  What then of the coming months?

Small scale combat among politicians was already ramping up last season and there will be a lot more of that as we get closer to the election, which will be held?  Well, the law says, October 19^th, 2015, but that’s not written in stone.  There’s lot of ways around it.  So, it could be as early as this spring.  Who knows?  Well he does but he’s not talking; never does.  Shhh!

Either way, elections focus the mind, the money and the mendacity.  What to watch?  Well to hear the Liberals tell it; it’s going to be the “Sunshine Kid” versus “Grumpy Cat”.

The Conservatives will say it comes down to “Substance” over “Fluff”.

The NDP will tell you it’s an epic fight of “Good” versus “Evil”.

The challenge, as a voter or a journalist, is to find the long view.  It’s why I fly bush planes because from here you really get a perspective on this amazing country of ours.  How it survives at times in spite of what politics does to it.  More politicians should see it, and they will.  I’ll be taking some of them for a flight this season and we’ll bring you along.  I wonder what they’ll say away from their handlers and talking points, knowing that you’re in the backseat listening in.

There will be nothing usual about the upcoming political season but our job will be the same:  to make sure that they don’t get away with anything while they try to convince you that they are the very best.

Vassy Kapelos:

This week will be a busy one.  Let’s take a look at what’s on the agenda:

The mayoral race in Toronto is dealing with a major shakeup:  Rob Ford stepping out of the race because of his health, Doug Ford stepping in to replace him.  We’ll be watching how that changes things.

On Tuesday, Mike Duffy has his first court date.  The suspended senator is facing 31 charges; allegations of misspending public money.

And on Thursday, focus will shift across the pond to Scotland where residents are voting in a referendum to decide whether to become independent.

Canada has a lot to offer in terms of experience on that front and we have a whole new understanding of what happened behind the scenes of the 1995 Quebec Referendum thanks to a new book by Chantal Hébert, “The Morning After”.  I had the chance to speak to Chantal about the new book and what surprised her most talking to the key players surrounding that historic event.

Chantal Hébert:

There were three leaders:  Jacques Parizeau, Mario Dumont, and Lucien Bouchard.  They all asked the same question of Quebecers.  They all sought a “yes” answer but we discovered that the three of them did not have the same interpretation of a “yes”.

For Lucien Bouchard, a “yes” seemed to mean “maybe” Quebec goes or “maybe” we renew federalism.

For Mario Dumont, “yes” meant “no”.We’re going to stay in Canada and federalism will be renewed after a “yes”.

And for Premier Jacques Parizeau, a “yes” meant Quebec would become a country.

I found that a bit troubling that the three people who had asked the question did not agree on the meaning of the answer.

Vassy Kapelos:

You can find my full interview with Chantal Hébert on our website:  http://www.thewestblock.ca.

And that’s our show for today.  Thanks so much for watching.  Tom Clark will be back next Sunday.

Until then, have a great week.