Transcript Episode 14 Dec. 8

THE WEST BLOCK

Episode 14, Season 3

Sunday, December 8, 2013

Host: Tom Clark

Guest Interviews: Stephen Lewis, Ray Heard, Tasha Kheiriddin,

Aaron Wherry, Paul Calandra

Location: Ottawa

**Please check against delivery**

Tom Clark:

On this national day of mourning in South Africa, people across that country and around the world are remembering Nelson Mandela.  We look at his Canadian connections and why he believed that his walk to freedom might have been very different without Canada at his side.  Mandela held a genuine affection for Canada and for one Canadian in particular.  Canada’s former ambassador to the UN, Stephen Lewis, reflects on dinners with the Mandela’s.  He joins us from Johannesburg.

And will he stay or will he go?  The future of Stephen Harper and the PMO.  The palace guard, it is a changing.

Plus, the Parliamentary mouthpiece: how Paul Calandra has taken Question Period into places no MP has gone before.

I’m Tom Clark.  It is Sunday, December the 8^th and you are in The West Block.

Well across South Africa, people are praying, contemplating and singing today. This is the official day of mourning for Nelson Mandela that ushers in a week of remembrance.  As leaders from around the world begin to arrive for the memorial on Tuesday, here are just some of the sights and sounds this Sunday morning:

Visuals

Jacob Zuma clip:

“When I say we pray for the nation, is that we should pray for us not to forget some of the values that Madiba stood for.”

Tom Clark:

Well most people remember the legend that was Nelson Mandela, a few, a very happy few, can remember what he was like as a friend, a confidant and a mentor.  And one of those is Stephen Lewis, Canada’s former ambassador to the United Nations and until recently the UN special envoy for HIV/AIDS in Africa.  He joins me now from Johannesburg.  Stephen, welcome to The West Block.  Good to have you here.  What an extraordinary day to be in South Africa.  What’s it like to be there?

Stephen Lewis:

It is.  The word extraordinary applies appropriately Tom.  I actually went out to Soweto this morning to Nelson Mandela’s home to watch the alleged process of mourning but what it was actually was a great deal of dancing and singing, and a kind of exaltation. While there is sadness effusing everything everywhere, there is also a tremendous pride in the father of the nation and a deep seated feeling that the values he left must somehow be maintained and implemented.

Tom Clark:

Through your work in Africa Stephen, you got to Nelson Mandela and his family.  For many years when you went to Johannesburg you’d have lunch ordinner with the Mandela’s at home.  Allow us into that dining room for a moment, what did you talk about?

Stephen Lewis:

Well I don’t want to overstate it Tom.  In truth, my friendship was with Graca Machel, Nelson Mandela’s wife.  We’d been working together and friends together for almost 20 years.  So when I came to Johannesburg and visited, I did enter the family home and we did have on occasion lunch or dinner together. And what was true of Mandela at that time I think is true of his reputation generally, universally.  The conversation was relaxed and friendly sometimes humorous, often impish and what he most wanted to know was about Canada because he had a kind of reverence almost for Brian Mulroney and the extraordinary role that Canada had played in fighting apartheid, and particularly within the Commonwealth, our willingness to take on Margaret Thatcher frontally.  So there was in Mandela, a very deep and abiding sense that Canada was in part, responsible for the end of apartheid and for his release after 22 years in prison.

Tom Clark:

And of course, that goes right back to John Diefenbaker of course when he led the charge to kick South Africa out of the commonwealth because of the apartheid policies.  When he spoke to you about Canada, what particularly did he want to know Stephen?  I mean was he interested in the politics of the country and the gossip?  What was it?

Stephen Lewis:

It was mostly a deep interest in Mulroney himself.  That was fascinating and a very deep interest in what it was that drove us to take such a strong stand, both at the United Nations and within the Commonwealth on the issue of apartheid.  And he was very interested to learn of the tremendous anti-apartheid movement in Canada because there was a large feeling, a kind of momentum within civil society that you can also remember Tom where so many people developed their sense of social justice against apartheid, just as the Americans did it against Vietnam.  And I tried to convey that to Madiba as he is affectionately called by everyone.  We didn’t much discuss the politics of Canada.  We didn’t much discuss the culture of Canada and he was very circumspect about international issues.  The only thing he allowed himself to say with some passion was how much he detested the Iraq war and that’s why he called Tony Blair the foreign minister of the United States.

Tom Clark:

Maybe one of the few times that Nelson Mandela actually verbally took a stand like that. Stephen you have so much of your life invested, so much of your work invested in Africa.  I want you to reflect on this for a minute.  There is no question that Nelson Mandela transformed South Africa, in fact he transformed parts of the world.  Did he transform Africa?

Stephen Lewis:

I’m speaking to you with a considerable degree of pelting rain in the background; one of those magnificent African showers or thunderstorms so I hope you can hear me.  I’ll raise my voice to astronomic levels.  I think that what Mandela has done is to give all of Africa a sense of wellbeing and of hope.  I’m not sure that the other political leaders have taken it on.  There are numbers of them who resent the tremendous profile of Mandela and the way he is seen as an icon by the entire international community.  Here in South Africa, his successors, both Thabo Mbeki and Zuma, the present president have never been as revered as Mandela was, not even close and this is still a society of tremendous inequality, a great deal of HIV; over 6 million people living with the virus.  A lot crime, a lot of sexual violence, a lot of unemployment; there’s a great deal to be healed in South Africa but everybody measures the future against the words of Mandela from the past.  His tone, his feeling, his goodness will undoubtedly live on.

Tom Clark:
Stephen in the 30 seconds I’ve got left, have you got a final word for a person who you got to know quite well in a very unique way?

Stephen Lewis:

Just that personally Tom, I was overwhelmed by the sense of reconciliation, affection, generosity of spirit which he conveyed to everyone all the time; the high and the mighty and the lower mortals.  He was the same invincible, decent human being and they rarely come along in this world.

Tom Clark:

Stephen Lewis, Johannesburg in pelting rain.  Thank you so much Stephen.  Good seeing you again.

Stephen Lewis:

Right you are.  Bye-bye Tom.

Tom Clark:

Well another Canadian who had a unique relationship with Mandela is Ray Heard, a former South African journalist and former vice president in fact of this network.  I spoke with him earlier about the effect that Mandela had on the rest of Africa.

Ray Heard:

Gave it the opportunity, he cared about bringing water into villages which is sanitation and health care and growing things.  Mandela was a very practical man and he was very imperfect.  He said to me, I’m sick of people seeing me as a saint.  He was married three times Tom.  He had girlfriends, kind of like the Kennedy’s in a way but Mandela was a different person.  His destiny was different and may I say this, everyone is paying tribute to him, including our politicians.  I hope Canada puts its money where its mouth is.  What South Africa needs is more help mainly in my judgment, building water, water wells to feed the people because if South Africa fails, Africa fails.

Tom Clark

Well that was Ray Heard reflecting on Nelson Mandela.

Well coming up in the show, is the prime minister packing his bags to go or packing his office for battle?  The future of Stephen Harper, that’s coming up next.

But first, a moment in time, Nelson Mandela speaks to a crowd in Montreal just months after being released from prison.

Montreal, June 1990

Nelson Mandela:
“Together we will win the sacred prize, the sacred prize of democracy.”

Break

Tom Clark:

Well welcome back.  It has been an extraordinary few months for Stephen Harper and his Conservatives.  Despite some significant policy breakthroughs, they haven’t had a good day in Parliament since September.  Harper himself has never before been under such continued withering attack from the Opposition over the Senate scandal.  And so far he hasn’t put up much of a defence.  So, is he done? Joining me to discuss, from Toronto, Tasha Kheiriddin of iPolitics and the National Post and here in Ottawa, Aaron Wherry of Maclean’s Magazine. Welcome to you both.

Just before we start, a development of note this weekend, this man you’re seeing on the screen, Dimitri Soudas has returned much to the dismay of even some Conservative MP’s I might add.  He is the tough; some would say nasty, abrasive in your face former spokesman for Stephen Harper.  Tasha, what does this mean for Harper’s future?

Tasha Kheiriddin:

Well it tells me Tom, that Mr. Harper intends to stick around probably longer than a lot of people have been saying he may.  There’s been speculation about his leadership building for about the last six months and the Senate scandal has been one of the aggravating factors there.  Mr. Soudas is known as an incredibly loyal soldier to Mr. Harper.  He’s worked with him for years.  He’s been out of politics now for two years with the Olympic committee so the fact he’s quitting that position a month and a half before the Sochi Games indicates that something big has been needed and I think that is a firm hand close to Mr. Harper who can give him advise and who can help him also manage issues within the party itself.  It’s not just caucus that is obviously upset about the scandal but there’s issues within, I think, the Conservative fold that have to be addressed.

Aaron Wherry:

To me it looks like a retrenching and it looks to me like a guy who needs the people he can trust around him.

Tom Clark;

Okay, but you know it brings up another question and that is that…and I’m sure both of you have heard what I’ve been hearing from Conservative MP’s and even some cabinet ministers that there is unrest in the caucus.  There is a sense among some of them that the time has come for a change.  They are worried about maybe Stephen Harper dragging them down.  So, is this the way of sort of getting control over that caucus again?  Sort of knocking some heads together and saying stop the rebellion; we’ve got another election to fight?

Tasha Kheiriddin:

It certainly is pushing back.  It certainly is sending that message.  Whether it works is another question entirely but you know the bill that Michael Chong put forward this week was a shot across the bow of Mr. Harper saying you know we may not want to get rid of you necessarily but please be careful because there is unrest in that direction.  That bill would not become law until after the next election anyway.  It would not receive royal ascent assuming it was even passed but it certainly was that clear shot.  And I think this is Mr. Harper firing back and saying I’m not going anywhere until I feel like going and circling the wagons with the three people that you mentioned.

Tom Clark:

Yeah and I mean it is a good point that when you take a look at Michael Chon’s reform bill Aaron, a lot of people have been saying this is just code for people saying this is a way to get rid of Stephen Harper and there is significant support for Michael Chong’s bill in the Conservative caucus.

Aaron Wherry:

Yeah I don’t know about how threatened Stephen Harper is really from inside at this point.  I think what would relax everyone on the Conservative side is by seeing this government perform better and by seeing those poll numbers come back up.  You know, ultimately these guys have to worry about re-election in 2015.  And if MP’s are frustrated, if MP’s are nervous, I suspect that’s what it is.  And so for Stephen Harper really what he needs right now is competence.  He needs an effective response to what’s been going on these last few months and so I think that is what he needs to look for more than worrying about sort of manoeuvring around the inside or getting caucus even in line.  I think he just needs to worry about running a competent government and getting ready for re-election.

Tom Clark:

Yeah, and Tasha sort of pull these two threads together here about the reform bill and Stephen Harper’s future.  I mean is it even realistic to think that as long as Stephen Harper sits in the prime minister’s chair that he would ever agree to a Parliamentary reform that would in any way restrict his powers?

Tasha Kheiriddin:

Again, this wouldn’t take effect until after the next election. So…

Tom Clark:

Yeah, but if he runs again and he’s got…if he is going to run again he’s thinking he’s going to win, right? So…

Tasha Kheiriddin:

Yeah, and if he runs again, I think it would be very, very unusual for him to seek another term after that because then, no leader has really ever lasted that long.  So I think here what you have is a situation where Mr. Harper is caught between a rock and a hard place.  I think he really would be seen well to support this measure or at least let MP’s vote their conscience as the other two parties are doing and not speak out against it in any extreme serious way because I think…his spokespeople have spoken out on it, but I think that he really has to walk a certain fine line because there are issues beyond his control here.  The auditor general and the RCMP are two big players in the Senate scandal.  He cannot control what they do and what they say and he needs to be prepared for the eventuality, if he for example was called to testify in a criminal trial involving Nigel Wright or Mike Duffy, you know there maybe…that may be too much of a tidal wave pushing him aside.  So I think what he’s doing, he’s trying as much as possible to have the right people around him to deal with that kind of scenario should it manifest itself.

Tom Clark:

And Aaron that brings up a good point.  I mean if the RCMP investigation actually leads to charges and if those charges are then heard in court around 2015, you’ll need about ten more Dimitri Soudas’ in your office to deal with that.

Aaron Wherry:

Yeah, there are a lot of forces here that are out of his control and he needs to be prepared for that.  You know, if you looked at what the RCMP has put together at this point you would have to prepare yourself for the possibility of charges.  And at that point, it gets very dicey for the prime minister.  At the same time, I think unless his approval ratings drop into the teens, into the single digits, he’s really still the Conservative Party’s best hope.  To change leaders at this point, to put in a new leader is not really going to put you in a better position.  That’s an untested leader going in to an election.  Stephen Harper even at this point is still sort of a familiar presence to the Canadian electorate and you know you want some familiarity going into an election.

Tasha Kheiriddin:

See I disagree with that one.  If I can just say for one moment, I don’t necessarily agree that it is.  It depends on the adversary face and I think that the polls over the next year will be key to look at.  The byelection was a very poor showing for Mr. Harper, a very poor showing for the Conservative Party in that the Liberals increased their vote in every single part of the country and quite dramatically in the west even if they didn’t win, Brandon Souris but the point is that you know they have to examine the situation.  If you’ve got a young leader, no matter what he says or does doesn’t seem to make a difference in terms of his popularity, is it wise to have the old guard up against him.  Is it a sense of generational change that’s coming and if that is the case, then might it make more sense to have a fresher leader and give that person enough time.  And this is why Mr. Harper would have to make a decision now because that person would have to have at least a year in office before the election.  Yep.

Tom Clark:

And I would just end it this way by saying the one thing that all three of us that everybody in this country knows about politics, it always changes.  It never stays the same.  Tasha Kheiriddin in Toronto, Aaron Wherry here in Ottawa, thank you both very much I appreciate your time.

Tasha Kheiriddin:

Thank you.

Tom Clark:

Well if you’ve ever wanted to scream at the TV set when Question Period comes on you’re not alone.  We introduce you to the MP who loves it when people love to hate him.  That’s next.

But fist, Nelson Mandela visited Canada three times after being released from prison and in 1998 he spoke to the Canadian Parliament.

September 24, 1998

Nelson Mandela:

“Today, I stand before you as the elected representative of the South African people.  Thank you once again for helping us end our oppression.”

Break

Tom Clark:

Welcome back. Well if Tom Mulcair has been the sharp end of the attack on the Senate scandal then the parliamentary secretary to the prime minister, Paul Calandra has gleefully been trying to blunt it.  Now if you’ve watched him in Question Period his performance may have left you either a bit confused, annoyed or maybe even angry.  Well we caught up to him to see how he’s feeling about his performance in the House these days.  Take a look:

Paul Calandra in the House:

It’s always very nice to see such a collegial atmosphere in the House Mr. Speaker, I do like flowers and of course with lemons I like to make lemonade Mr. Speaker.

Tom Clark:

It’s vintage Calandra. His answers about the senate scandal can take you from flowers to pizza.

Tom Clark:

You find yourself now though the object of ridicule across the country for what you’ve been doing for the past few weeks.  Does that square with why you wanted to get into public service?

Paul Calandra:

Well look, I enjoy debate in any of its forms and I know that I’ve taken a lot of criticism for how I’ve been answering some of the questions in the House of Commons, and that’s fair game

Tom Clark:

Including this anti Calandra website where you type in a question (What did Gerstein know?) and you get an answer (Calandra: Let me just take an opportunity to of course congratulate my Saskatchewan Roughriders)

Tom Clark:

As you may have guessed, his favourite technique is simply not to answer the question at all.

Tom Clark:

You were asked very directly about what Gerstein knew, what he did and you simply didn’t answer the question.

Paul Calandra:

Well it’s hard in 35 seconds to answer a question. I think the Opposition understands this.

Tom Clark:

But let me ask you then, let’s play Question Period for a minute here.  If I asked you a question, very simple one, did Senator Gerstein consider paying $30,000 dollars to pay off Mike Duffy’s debts?  Your answer would be?

Paul Calandra:

In Question Period?

Tom Clark:

No, right here, right now.

Paul Calandra:

Right now with you?  Just as I said to you, I mean if you went to a page 17 of the ITO, which those 80 page documents that we’ve been referring to, both of us in the House of Commons with the opposition in the government, I think it’s under point number “J” but I could be wrong on that.  And this is in the interview between the RCMP and Nigel Wright.  And Nigel Wright says in this point that Senator Gerstein had agreed to make that $32,000 thousand dollar payment.  Now Senator Gerstein for his part has said, no that he didn’t and that the fund didn’t pay.  It’s kind of hard for me to get all of that out in 35 seconds of Question Period.

Tom Clark:

I think you just did it.  I think you just did it now.

Paul Calandra:

Well maybe I did.  Well if I did, then I’ll take your word for it.

Tom Clark:

What he doesn’t find hard though is using his family to make a political point.

Paul Calandra in the House:

My two daughters this summer actually had a lemonade stand Mr. Speaker, where they sold lemonade for 5 cents on the street, they did very well Mr. Speaker, I’m very proud of them.

Tom Clark:

Most politicians spend their lives trying to keep their families out of political debates, especially when it comes to scandals.  You brought your family right into the middle of it.  Was that in retrospect not the best thing to do?

Paul Calandra:

Oh no, I disagree…  I truly believe that most politicians get in this because they want to make a difference for their family and if I can somehow use my family to help better explain what we’re doing here or better explain the nature of the debate then I’ll do it.

Tom Clark:

This form of unrestricted political warfare may all be a prelude to what Calandra wants next.

Paul Calandra:

You know what Tom, I’ve always actually been interested from the time I was very young.  I never wanted to be a police officer or firefighter.  I always wanted to be the prime minister of Canada.  I don’t know why.

Tom Clark:

You want to be the prime minister of Canada? Does your boss know this?

Paul Calandra:

Yeah, well absolutely, yeah…

Tom Clark:

Well that is our show for today.  You can watch our extended interview with Ray Heard at www.thewestblock.ca.  It’s going to be a busy week with all eyes on South Africa, Stephen Harper, three former prime ministers, premier Alison Redford and former governor general Michael Jean well they are all en route to South Africa now where they will attend Nelson Mandela’s memorial service on Tuesday.  And you can catch all of the details of the week ahead on Global National with Dawna Friesen.  I’m Tom Clark, thanks very much for being here.  We leave you now with some more images and memories of Nelson Mandela in Canada and around the world.

Nelson Mandela (Parliamentary Throne Speech 1990):

“We thank the government and people of Canada for this singular honour.  We have difficulty in finding the words to describe those depths of our appreciation to be made an honorary citizen of this great country is for us a gesture so evocatively loaded with the signals of friendship and solidarity that we’re moved beyond words.  We can merely say, thank you.”