Transcript Season 4 Episode 29

WATCH: Full broadcast of The West Block with Tom Clark, aired March 30, 2015.

Host: Tom Clark

Guest Interviews: Madam Bayan Abdul Rahman, Jason Kenney, Ruth Ellen Brosseau

Location: Ottawa

On this Sunday, as Canada gets set to expand its mission fighting ISIS, we talked to a representative of the Kurdish government about what they want from us and what they think our exit strategy should be.

Then, we’ll put the questions to Defence Minister Jason Kenney.  How long are we willing to fight and what about our humanitarian aid?

Plus “Plane Talk” is back is with an NDP MP swept up in the orange wave in Quebec, thrust in the spotlight because of a mid-campaign trip to Las Vegas.  We ask Ruth Ellen Brosseau about the transition to respected Member of Parliament.

It is Sunday, March the 29th and from the nation’s capital, I’m Tom Clark.  And you are in The West Block.

Well sending Canadian Forces into battle is obviously a very serious matter so we will take a very close look at all sides as the government extends our mission fighting ISIS for yet another year.  But before we start, a quick primer on the operation:

Operation Impact:  The Canadian military mission to fight ISIS began last October.  The assets, six CF-18s dropping bombs on ISIS targets and three other aircraft to refuel and provide reconnaissance, 600 members of the air force to support the aircraft and 69 Special Forces operators make up our contribution on the ground to advise and assist Kurdish Forces.  The government now wants to extend that mission by 12 months and expand air force operations to Syria.  The NDP and the Liberals have opposed the mission from the very start.

Well with a unique insider’s view of all of this, I am joined from Washington by Madam Bayan Abdul Rahman.  She is the Kurdish government representative to the United States.  And Madam Abdul Rahman thanks very much for being here.  As you may be aware, there’s a debate in this country about what our goals and objectives should or should not be but I’m interested, what are your goals and objectives and specifically does your region want to remain as part of Iraq?

Madam Bayan Abdul Rahman:

Today the aim is to fight ISIS.  It is also to take care of over 1.6 million refugees and displaced people from Iraq and Syria, and that’s a huge burden for our region.  Our own population is only 5 million.  So to have received 1.6 million to 2 million refugees and IDPs is a huge burden for our people and for our services.  And again, we need the international community to play its role.  You asked if ultimately our goal was to stay with Iraq.  Independence is everybody’s dream in Kurdistan.  If you’re Kurdish, you want an independent state and I believe it is our right, and I believe that we will achieve it.  Whether that’s today or tomorrow or in 50 years’ time, that’s a question for another time.

Tom Clark:

Your troops are becoming more effective in this fight, would you foresee the time when Kurdish peshmerga troops would go to other parts of Iraq to help Iraqi’s defeat ISIS as well?

Madam Bayan Abdul Rahman:

I agree with you, the peshmerga are effective.  I would argue that they are the most effective ground force against ISIS in Iraq and in the region.  What we need for our peshmerga is training, which I believe Canada is providing and the support of airstrikes, intelligence, logistical support, so we need Canada to continue to play that role and the other coalition partners.  Are we prepared to fight for other parts of Iraq?  We are, if we are part of a coalition of Iraqi Forces.

Tom Clark:

Do you think that coalition of Sunni and Shia Iraqi’s is possible?

Madam Bayan Abdul Rahman:

I’m afraid it doesn’t exist right now.  We don’t see evidence of the Sunni Arab community being ready to retake Mosul.  Maybe that will take time to build and everybody is working on that, including President Barzani the president of Kurdistan region.  He is trying very hard to get the Sunni Arab community leaders, the tribal leaders to talk to each other to decide among themselves what future do they want for their part of Iraq.

Tom Clark:

In this country, part of the debate is centred around once ISIS is defeated or degraded to the point it is no longer a threat in the region, what next?  What happens after that?  From your point of view, from the Kurdish point of view, what should Canada do at that point?  Should it simply leave the region once ISIS has been neutralized?

Madam Bayan Abdul Rahman:

Well first I should say that to defeat ISIS, we need to deal with them not just in Iraq but also in Syria and I understand there’s a debate or discussion about extending airstrikes to Syria.  I think that’s important.  The nerve centre for ISIS is Syria.  You can’t just push them out of Iraq and think that you’ve done the job or we have done the job.  So dealing with ISIS in Iraq and Syria is step one and two.  Step three you’re absolutely right.  We need to deal with this threat from ISIS and from the other radical terrorist criminal organizations that have infested the Middle East and North Africa.  That does need to have a strategy, not just by the regional players, but also by our international friends.  Maybe ultimately there needs to be some kind of peacekeeping force or maybe some kind of international conference, an international dialogue about how to deal with this issue in the long term.

Tom Clark:

How long should Canada be prepared to keep on with the fight?  Is it a matter of months?  Is it a matter of years?  And if so, how many years do you foresee before you get to that point where you can say ISIS and its affiliates no longer threaten the region.

Madam Bayan Abdul Rahman:

Frankly, Canada and everybody else should stay in the fight for as long as it takes.  ISIS is not a threat only to Kurdistan, Iraq and Syria.  It is a threat to the west.  It is a global international organization and the fight may take months, may take years but everybody needs to be committed to it for the long term. I don’t remember, for example, during the period of the Cold War, the United States or the west saying we will only deal with the Soviet Union for the next two years.  The west was in the fight, the Cold War, for as long as it thought it was necessary and I think that’s how we should view this.

Tom Clark:

Let me ask you a final question Bayan, as you know, there was a Canadian soldier who was killed as a result of friendly fire from peshmerga troops.  Your regional representatives undertook an investigation into that.  They’ve already made some public statements.  What do you know right now about what actually happened?

Madam Bayan Abdul Rahman:

As I understand it, the investigation is ongoing.  Personally, I believe that we made… some of my colleagues made, some unfortunate and unwelcome statements at the beginning, in the immediate aftermath of that incident.  I think we should let the investigation take its course but I want to reiterate that your loss is our loss and we very much regret that incident.

Tom Clark:

Madam Bayan Abdul Rahman thank you so much for joining us today, I appreciate your time.

Madam Bayan Abdul Rahman:

Thank you.

Tom Clark:

Well coming up a little later in the show, “Plane Talk” with Ruth Ellen Brosseau.  But first, Defence Minister Jason Kenney is here to answer our questions and respond to what we just heard.  Stay with us.

Break

Tom Clark:

Welcome back.  Well the government says it is extending and expanding the mission to include airstrikes over Syria to prevent ISIS from gaining safe haven there.  What happens next?  Well the mission now is to defeat ISIS.  What does victory look like and what is our exit strategy?  Well joining me now is Canada’s Defence Minister Jason Kenney.  Minister very good for you to be here.  You just heard the Kurdish representative liken this fight against ISIS to the Cold War.  Is this the great ideological struggle of our time?  If it is, should we be preparing for a generational conflict in the Middle East?

Jason Kenney:

Well let me answer that in two ways.  First of all, our immediate combat mission in terms of our airstrikes is against this particular organization, ISIL, the so-called Islamic State and we’ve obviously tabled a resolution in Parliament for one year extension of that military campaign, which also involves training of the Kurdish peshmerga.  And we hope that the Iraqi security forces will with the support of allied airstrikes be able to move forward with a ground counter offensive to begin moving ISIL out of their territory.  And we already see ISIL moving much of its heavy equipment back into Eastern Syria, one of the reasons we’ve decided to expand our air campaign there.  So we see this as a discreet challenge that we’re addressing with a coalition of 24 allies on the military side.  But more broadly, Tom, it’s quite clear that this phenomena of let’s call it, “Global Jihad”, that has organizations all the way from West Africa, Boko Haram; in Nigeria through Al-Shabaab in East Africa to Al-Qaeda link groups in Yemen through to Hamas in the Gaza Strip, all the way Al-Nustra, Al-Qaeda, ISIS in Syria and then into Iraq all the way over to the Deobandi militias in Taliban and Pakistan all the way down to the Southern Philippines with the Abu Seif of jihadist organization recently affiliating with ISIL.  This is I call it, an “Arc of Violence”.  All of them motivated by the same dystopian vision of creating this crazy caliphate based on violent seventh century rules of governance.  So there’s no doubt that is a huge long term strategic challenge.

Tom Clark:

Should we be thinking, not in terms of the next resolution of six months or one year but in terms of decades, that we as Canada have to be involved in this?

Jason Kenney:

Let me put it this way, Tom; we hope that our engagement against ISIL is limited and discreet, and that’s what we’re focused on in Parliament right now and our military operation right now.  But the broader picture of these organizations does constitute a global security threat that we cannot ignore.  What I would say, Tom, is look, we can’t eliminate all these terrorist organizations motivated by this idea of the caliphate.  We can’t eliminate all of them.  And national governments, be they from Nigeria all the way to Philippines have to primarily respond to the security threat in their midst.  But what we and other countries must do, Tom, is to avoid allowing the people motivated by this ideology to create their own states from which they can operate with impunity.  That’s what they were doing in Afghanistan with the Taliban which is why we had the security mission there and that’s what ISIL was on the way to doing in Syria and Iraq.

Tom Clark:

Let’s take Libya for an example now and let’s go forward to that day that ISIS no longer presents a challenge or a danger to that part of the Middle East, who gets the land?

Jason Kenney:

Well we would hope, Tom that the Syrian people get the land.

Tom Clark:

No but the Syrian people are engaged in a great five year civil war that has killed hundreds of thousands of people.  Who gets the land once ISIS is out of the picture?

Jason Kenney:

I’ll tell you what Canada’s preference and position is that we try to advocate through our international diplomacy.  We want there to be a cease fire leading to a peace agreement between the parties in Syria that leads to a government that respects the rights of all confessions and communities, that gets rid of Bashar Al-Assad and that prevents the likes of ISIS and the Al-Nusra front from taking power.  That’s our preference…

Tom Clark:
Who are we working with on that?

Jason Kenney:

Well we’re working with the international community, with the Europeans, with Turkey, with all of our partners.  Nobody wants to see a Salafist, radical extremist government replacing Bashar Al-Assad and no one wants to see Bashar Al-Assad there.  The Civil War in Syria is a huge tragedy.  By the way, Canada has contributed over $700 million dollars in humanitarian relief to the Syrian refugees, the sixth to largest contribution in the world, so we’re punching above our weight in helping those people.  We want there to be peace but listen, we’re not going to allow our profound objections to President Al-Assad to give ISIS a safe haven in the eastern part of that country which he is either unwilling or unable to govern.

Tom Clark:

Okay, I’ve got to move on just time wise.  I’ve got one other question for you.  The Parliamentary Budget Officer last week said that we are at a point of unsustainability for our armed forces in this country because you would have to spend 1.6 per cent of GDP on the military budget just to sustain what we’ve got now and you’re 100 miles away from 1.6 per cent.  What are you going to do?  Are you going to cut the size of the military or are you going to put more money into it?

Jason Kenney:

I wouldn’t say we’re a 100 miles away from that.  We’ve increased the military budget by 27 per cent in the past eight years.  Faster than inflation or the economic growth…

Tom Clark:

Well hang on a second. I’ve got to stop you there because we asked NATO about this.  And the NATO numbers are a little bit different than what you’re suggesting.  This year we’re down to 1 per cent of GDP.  That is the lowest it’s ever been.  That’s lower than during the so-called decade of darkness of the Liberals.

Jason Kenney:

That’s not true actually, it was lower…

Tom Clark:

Well that’s NATO.

Jason Kenney:

It was lower that period… the budget for the Department of Defence this year will be $20.1 billion.  It was $14.3 billion when we came to office.  That’s an increase of 27 per cent.

Tom Clark:

What per cent GDP is that?

Jason Kenney:

The last figure I have for last year was about 1.2 per cent.  Look, of course the military…

Tom Clark:

Well NATO figures disagree with you.

Jason Kenney:

The military would love to have more resources, but let’s face it; we are punching above our weight in our commitment against ISIL, in our action against Gadhafi in Libya, in our contribution in Afghanistan, and all sorts of security missions around the world we’re punching above our weight.  On Monday, tomorrow, I’m receiving our fifth C-17 Globe Master which is just another evidence of the kind of huge new equipment that we’ve acquired for our military.

Tom Clark:

So no more new money for the military because you’re down, according to NATO, you’re down at 1 per cent GDP.

Jason Kennedy:

I can tell you this; we will give the military the resources necessary to do the job that we ask of them.

Tom Clark:

Jason Kenney thanks very much for joining us, I appreciate your time.

Jason Kenney:

Thank you, Tom.

Tom Clark:

Ellen Brosseau:  how she got over the surprise of being elected and why she has respect for the Conservatives.  That’s next.

Break

Tom Clark:

Welcome back.  Well in the last election, 2011, the orange wave swept over Quebec and elected an historic number of NDP MPs and caught up in all of that was Ruth Ellen Brosseau.  She was so sure of defeat that during the campaign she took a brief holiday in Las Vegas, but against all odds, on election night, 2011, she was elected in Berthier–Maskinonge.  Before that, she was the assistant manager of a university pub.  Now she’s the deputy agriculture critic and vice chair of the NDP national caucus so we took her aloft for a little bit of “Plane Talk”.

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

It reminds me of my mom’s car, she has a ’67 MG.

Tom Clark:

Laughing.

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

She does, I learned how to drive on it.

Tom Clark:

Oh yeah?

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

Yeah.

Tom Clark:

Rockliffe traffic, Charlie, bravo, x-ray, papa, rolling 27 Rockliffe.

Ruth Ellen Brosseau, welcome to “Plane Talk”.  Good to have you here.

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

Thanks for the invitation.

Tom Clark:

Well I guess the only thing more surprising than being in a small plane with somebody like me was getting elected back in 2011.  How surprised were you when you won?

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

Oh, May 2^nd, my son, I remember before leaving, he said mom you’re going to win.  Like I don’t think I’m going to win babe but maybe the next time around.  Maybe if I decide to run again I will have better chances next time around so I left and it was pretty amazing but it was just kind of for me, what do I do next?  Like what are the next steps?  What are my few days or weeks looking like?  It was kind of unknown and I was really lucky to have support of my caucus colleagues but also Jack. I could talk to him any time and so Thomas Mulcair, they really helped me get through the first few weeks.

Tom Clark:

What was that transition like for you because you were the most unlikely winner of the 2011 election campaign?  You’ve become a well-respected Member of Parliament.  Talk to me about that transition between the surprise and where you are now.

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

It’s been a crazy four years almost… four years now.  At first it was pretty hard having to learn how to do everything under a spotlight and scrutinized a lot by the media so I really wanted to make sure that eventually they would kind of leave me alone but also I do a good job hopefully.  So I think adapting to that, learning how to deal with media, not take it personally and just kind of move forward and continue, and just stay true and close to the family and friends.  That was kind of hard at first.

Tom Clark:

One of the things that you did before you became and MP was that you were a bartender.

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

Yeah, yeah I was.

Tom Clark:

What was your favourite drink to make as a bartender?

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

For me personally?

Tom Clark:

Yeah the one you liked making the best?

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

I’d say a dirty vodka martini.

Tom Clark:

A dirty… was that to make or to drink?

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

To drink, to drink but no at a bar rail that was always fun to do.  It was nice and fast.  But before being elected, I was assistant manager of a bar so I kind of stepped up.  I did bartend and serve for many years in downtown restaurants and bars.  I really enjoyed that.  It was a lot of fun but when you’re getting late in your 20’s you’re kind of looking for something else, something that is not until 3 o’clock in the morning.  Something a little bit more stable.

Tom Clark:

So you went into politics because you didn’t want to work until three in the morning?  Did nobody tell you?

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

Yeah, you’re working actually seven days a week, 365 days a year, it’s hard to take time off and actually leave that cell phone alone and relax.  It was a big change but I think my experience previously working in bars and meeting people and listening has helped me as a Member of Parliament.  Surely it’s completely different. I have a lot more responsibilities.  The subjects are vast, especially being critic for deputy critic for agriculture; I have a lot to learn.  I continue to learn every day but I think my experience before did help me also having a thicker skin helped too… helps in politics.

Tom Clark:

What’s the one thing that you’ve learned about politics that you never knew before you were elected?

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

Oh, I guess how partisan it is in the House of Commons.  I think that’s one of the things that surprised me the most.  We would work on certain… I’ve only been on a few committees.  I was on ethics for a while and then I moved to status of women and I’ve been on the “ag” for the last few years but just how caught up people get in the party lines and how partisan people are, I think that kind of surprised me at first how there’s a lot of control by the government committees when you would think that something would be partisan that you know it would be for the greater good.  You know it just didn’t matter, they would just stick to the party line and I think that kind of surprised me the most.

Tom Clark:

You were in daily battle with the Conservative government.  Have your views of Conservatives changed since you’ve been in the House of Commons?

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

I think at first you know it was kind of, this is the government and this is who we’re kind of battling against.  I think the Conservatives I have respect for them because I kind of know what to expect.  Day-to-day, I know what to expect of the Conservatives but the Liberals, it just depends on what side of the bed they kind of wake up on.  You don’t know how they’re going to act or how they’re going to take a position on certain bills so I guess I have respect for the Conservatives for the principle you kind of know where they’re going to go with things.  The Liberals, you’re just not too sure.

Tom Clark:

So you’re not totally opposed to this partisan thing?

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

Tom Clark:

Okay, I’ve got to ask you this.

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

Yep.

Tom Clark:
In the next election campaign, are you going to go back to Las Vegas?  Sort of a good luck thing.

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

Tom Clark:

In Las Vegas?

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

Tom Clark:

Ruth Ellen Brosseau thanks for coming up and doing some “Plane Talk”.

Ruth Ellen Brosseau:

Thank you so much, it was a great way to start the week for sure.  Another box ticked off.  I never thought I would do this.

Tom Clark:

And there’s a lot more “Plane Talk” in the weeks ahead.  Here’s just some of the people who have already got their boarding passes:  Lisa Raitt, the Transport Minister Dominic LeBlanc, Marc Garneau the former astronaut, Peter Stoffer of the NDP and Tom Mulcair will be coming up in the plane in the weeks ahead.

Let us know what you think about what you’ve heard on this show.  Here are all the addresses where we can be reached.  We appreciate your comments and let us know what you’d like us to be talking about. That’s the show for this week.  I’m Tom Clark.  See you back here next Sunday.