Transcript: Season 4, Episode 18

Watch: The full broadcast of The West Block with Tom Clark, aired Jan. 11, 2015.

Host: Jacques Bourbeau sitting in for Tom Clark

Guest Interviews: Steven Blaney, John Baird, Shahina Siddiqui, Jennifer Ditchburn

Location: Ottawa

**please check against deliver either by watching the above broadcast or listening to the audio provided below.

On this Sunday, reflecting on the Paris attacks, the worst on French soil in decades.  Canada’s safety minister on what more needs to be done in the fight against terror.

Then, we hear from a member of the Muslim community in Canada.

Plus, freedom of expression and freedom of the press:  Staff at Charlie Hebdo died exercising these rights.  We debate free expression versus religious sensitivity.

 LISTEN: Audio of the full broadcast of The West Block with Tom Clark, aired Jan 11, 2015.

It is Sunday, January the 11^th.  I’m Jacques Bourbeau sitting in for Tom Clark, and this is The West Block.

All eyes have been on France this week as the country endured the worst terrorist attack in decades.  The attack on Charlie Hebdo followed by a massive manhunt, then two hostage situations as police closed in on the killers; the French people responding with massive rallies, world leaders speaking out in solidarity, including Stephen Harper.

Stephen Harper:

“That the international jihadist movement has declared war.  They have declared war on anybody who does not think and act exactly as they wish they would think and act, and they have declared war on any country like ourselves that values freedom, openness and tolerance.”

Jacques Bourbeau:

Well Canada’s public safety minister is in France right now dealing with the aftermath of the terror attacks.  And we spoke to him before he left for Paris.

Well Minister Blaney, thanks for joining us on The West Block.  And you are going to be meeting your counterparts in Paris for a conference on counter terrorism called by France’s interior ministry.  And I’m wondering what message are you going to be bringing to this conference?

Steven Blaney:

The first message I will bring is the solidarity and the support of Canadians as our French people are experiencing a very difficult week.  Minister Cazeneuve was one of the first to reach out to us when we faced the October the 22^nd attack.  And we will also share our practices on how to better tackle with these evolving threats of terrorism and those individuals who are ready to commit violence to meet their target.

Jacques Bourbeau:

And when you look at those practices, where do you think we’re falling short in terms of our fight against terrorism?  Where are the gaps?

Steven Blaney:

As you know, our government has introduced a Combating Terrorism act.  A few weeks ago, before Christmas we tabled legislation so we can have information sharing and that’s why this meeting is so important at this point in time because we need to share information with our allies.  As you know, Canada has identified terrorism as our top national security.  We can overcome those challenges by working all together and this is what we are willing to do with our friends, French people, and also our American partners, and all of those around the world who are standing up for democracy and freedom of expression.

Jacques Bourbeau:

But I would think most Canadians would think that in fact we are already sharing lots of information with our western allies.  So, where are we falling short in that information sharing?

Steven Blaney:

We are currently working on an enhanced partnership with our French people.  This is certainly bilateral discussion I’m seeking to have with Mr. Cazeneuve.  What is important to see now is we’ve seen a growing number of individuals being lured, being seduced by those extremist ideas and willing to travel.  So we are good at identifying those individuals.  Now what we are realizing is when we prevent them from travelling, when we are removing their passports, we have to make sure that they are not a threat within our own borders.  That’s why we need to make sure that the tools that are provided to our police are sufficient, not only to identify the threat but to prevent those individuals from committing horrific and barbaric even such as the one we’ve just witnessed in Paris.  And we are intending to move forward in the very near future with additional measures to make sure that our law enforcement, those who are mandated to keep us safe have all the tools they need to do so.

Jacques Bourbeau:

One final quick question: With these new tools, these new laws that you are promising, are you confident that they will be enough to stop these attacks on what are so-called soft targets?

Steven Blaney:

Our measures are working already. We’ve been able to deter terrorists’ attacks.  There have been many plots that have been derailed.  Whether the Toronto 18, the VIA Rail plot of the BC plot.  These are attacks that were scheduled by terrorists. There are ongoing investigations.  There are charges that are being laid for some individuals who are willing to commit terrorist activities.  Our policies are working.  The judges are giving harsh sentences to those who are ready to attack innocent people, those who are ready to kill because they don’t share the same views.  This is not Canadian values but yes, we need to do more and that’s why we intend to come with more tools in the coming weeks, Jacques.

Jacques Bourbeau:

Well Minister, obviously there will be important discussions at this conference in Paris.  I’d like to thank you for joining us today.

Steven Blaney:

Thank you.

Jacques Bourbeau:

And joining us now is Foreign Affairs Minister, John Baird.  Minister Baird welcome to The West Block.

John Baird:

Great to be with you.

Jacques Bourbeau:

I’d like to speak about the shooting a few days ago in Paris.  Now you’ve had a few days to reflect on this attack, how serious is this threat?

John Baird:

Well when you see these people that are inspired by ISIL, whether it’s trying to take down elected officials on Parliament Hill or whether it’s specifically targeting the freedom of the press in Paris, it causes us great concern.  We obviously, this is going to be the great struggle of our generation:  terrorism.  Whether it’s from Air India in the ‘80’s to 9-11 to what we’re seeing in Paris this week, to what we saw in Ottawa this past October.  This is a real challenge for freedom loving people everywhere.

Jacques Bourbeau:

Now your party has issued a fund raising appeal, it’s titled, “Standing Up Against Terrorism” and it quotes the prime minister again saying that the jihadist, “attacked our most cherished democratic principles – freedom of expression and freedom of the press.”  But in 2006, when the cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad were published, your government wasn’t speaking so toughly.  Your predecessor Peter MacKay was applauding those organizations who didn’t republish the cartoons and when the Western Standard News magazine did publish them, then-Defence Minister Gordon O’Connor says well that didn’t help.  So, is your government really as strong a defender of freedom of expression as this fundraising appeal is claiming?

John Baird:

Look at when terrorists attack our Parliament, when we see attacks in France where people are being murdered for simply practicing their profession and writing and exercising their democratic rights, obviously those are a huge challenge.  And I think that Prime Minister Stephen Harper is the best leader in Canada who’s up to responding to that challenge.  And you know Canadians will later this year have an opportunity to make a judgement on that.

Jacques Bourbeau:

But in 2006, there was more of a perception of imminent danger if those cartoons were republished and your government was really preaching caution at that time.

John Baird:

I don’t remember what happened in 2006 with respect to some cartoons.  Let me say this, it’s obviously we have ISIL in Iraq and in Syria and those that are the sympathisers and those that are inspired by them, committing barbaric acts and obviously the free and democratic world will speak with one voice to defend democracy, democratic institutions and defend the fundamental rights of journalists to practice their profession in a free and democratic society.

Jacques Bourbeau:

I’d like to turn to the case of Mohamed Fahmy.  He’s been sentenced to a prison term in Egypt for spreading false news and supporting the Muslim Brotherhood.  His lawyers are hoping for a pardon and a transfer back to Canada.  They’re also asking for a meeting with you. Are you planning to meet with his lawyers and how optimistic are you at this point that the case could be resolved?

John Baird:
Tomorrow I’ll be travelling to Egypt to engage with the new government on a whole range of issues.  While I’m there, I’ll certainly take the opportunity as I have in the past, to raise Mr. Fahmy’s case.  Lynne Yelich, Minister of Consular Affairs, our team in Cairo have been doing a lot to advocate for his release.  The good news is he recently got a successful appeal and there has been a new law introduced by President El-Sisi that allows him authorities in this regard.  And listen, we have a good relationship with this new government in Egypt.  We’re going to work hard to continue to work hard at all levels to secure his release.

Jacques Bourbeau:

The fact that you’re going there, is that an indication that this case might be close to resolution?

John Baird:

Yeah, listen, I mean obviously we’ve heard some positive signals coming out of Cairo.  Let’s not get ahead of ourselves but obviously Lynne Yelich, our consular team around the world, including myself, we all work hard to advocate on behalf of Canadians when they face unjust persecutions.

Jacques Bourbeau:

Now the one country in that region you won’t be visiting is Iran.  You closed our embassy in that country two years ago, but you are choosing another kind of diplomatic effort, one that would directly engage the Iranian people rather than the Iranian government.  Can you tell me about this initiative and what you’re trying to achieve?

John Baird:

Sure, we have huge problems with the senior leadership at a political level in Iran.  We don’t have any problem with the Iranian people.  We want to provide them with online communications, with social media, with the internet, and some safe space to engage civil society, journalists, the mass public on expanding freedoms, expanding democratic space there.  This is some cutting edge stuff in digital diplomacy that Canada is doing and we hope it will meet with success.

Jacques Bourbeau:

Now there are many countries that monitor and restrict the freedom of expression on the internet; China being one, North Korea.  Is this an approach that you might try in other parts of the world?

John Baird:

Yeah, absolutely, while governments can try and shut down or block parts of the internet, the exciting part is there is so much innovation and technology to prevent that from happening.  And the internet can be a powerful tool for expanding freedom in the world.  And one of my jobs as Canada’s foreign minister is to promote Canadian values, and the most fundamental Canadian value is freedom.  And we’re looking forward to using these new technologies to try to expand that around the world.

Jacques Bourbeau:

Well on that note, Minister Baird, I’d like to thank you for joining us on the show this morning.

John Baird:

Thank you.

Jacques Bourbeau:

Coming up, we’ll hear from the Muslim community in Canada, what is there response to the attacks and what do they think we can do to prevent them?

Break

Jacques Bourbeau:

Welcome back to The West Block.  For Muslim communities in the west, the attacks in Paris raise difficult issues about alienated Muslim youth, radical ideologies in their midst in the ability of their religion to tolerate decent.

Joining us now, Shahina Siddiqui, who is the executive director of the Islamic Social Services Association based in Winnipeg.

Ms. Siddiqui, the attacks in Paris, I believe they’ve stiffened the resolve of most Canadians, that they believe they have the absolute right to express themselves freely, but I think the question many Canadians have is whether Canadian Muslims are comfortable with that right, especially when it comes to their religion and the ability to mock and ridicule it.

Shahina Siddiqui:

Well I don’t know if every right is absolute.  We always have checks and balances but definitely we believe in the freedom of expression, freedom of opinion, but it should work both ways.  So, if somebody feels that it is okay to hurt and offend a religious community, then that religious community also has a right to respond, maybe in a like manner through the pen or through the writing, but I think this is a conversation that should be going on in our civil society.  Is this right absolute or do we already impose on ourselves restrictions when we choose to express ourselves.  Do we choose our words carefully?  Weigh the options of the greater good of the impact of our words or our cartoons for example.  But again, in a civil society, that’s a conversation that must happen.  We have evolved a long way from censorship and book burnings and so forth.  Definitely as a Muslim, like any other Canadian, I believe that we do have the right of expression.

Jacques Bourbeau:

So what in your mind is the proper response to these attacks on freedom of expression and freedom of the press?

Shahina Siddiqui:

I think the first response has to be that we speak up, that we say that this has offended us and say why it has offended us so that we can have a conversation.  The other option we have it to change the channel for example.  We don’t have to see these cartoons.  We don’t have to…you know you can be silent and not respond and ignore it.  So it’s a choice that individuals make every day for things that offend them.  But violence definitely and absolutely is not the right response or even an acceptable response by any standards, by any faith.

Jacques Bourbeau:

In responding to these attacks, Canadian Prime Minister, Stephen Harper is promising more anti-terrorism laws, tougher enforcement.  Is that the right path?  Is that the right solution?

Shahina Siddiqui:

I don’t know how more tougher can we get.  We know Europe is very tough but incidences like this continue to happen.  And I think what we have offered at our organization is that all stakeholders need to come together.  As much as we condemn these terrorists, we also need to look beyond the condemnation to what is giving rights to this.  What could we do to prevent these things from happening, from having our youth recruited by these extremists that are stationed overseas or whatever?  So I think our laws are just one aspect of it but we need to take into account the social, the geo-political, all these variables in place and we really need to sit at a table together and bring because policing can only go so far, and it’s usually at the intervention stage.   We want to respond at the prevention stage, at the prevention point and we need to have lots more conversation.  People need to understand why as a Muslim I’m hurt when my Prophet is insulted but they also need to know that I think the greatest insult that was done to the name, to the respectful name of my Prophet was to kill in his name because that to me is most egregious.  So we need to have this conversation so we can listen to each other so that we can drown out these extremist messages, that we can find a more balanced, more creative ways of reaching out to each other.

Jacques Bourbeau:

Well Ms. Siddiqui, these are difficult issues facing your community and I’d like to thank you for discussing them with us today.

Shahina Siddiqui:

Thank you.

Jacques Bourbeau:

And up next, freedom of expression, the staff at Charlie Habdo were willing to die for this right.  The debate on whether or not to republish their cartoons, after the break.

Break

Jacques Bourbeau:

Welcome back.  The offices of Charlie Habdo were a target because of the cartoons it published.  In the wake of the killings, a debate began about whether other media should publish the cartoons in solidarity or even just to properly tell the story.  Before we delve in, an explainer:

They knew the risks of publishing these images.  Charlie Habdo’s offices were firebombed in 2011 after depicting Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam.  But that didn’t stop the magazine.  It continued to skewer powerful figures and all religions.  Not shying away from any subject, especially politics, even entertainers.

And we now welcome to the program, Jennifer Ditchburn, who is a reporter with the Canadian Press, but is also a member of the Canadian Committee for World Press Freedom.  And I don’t want to point out the position of Global News, and that is, we won’t self-censor.  We will publish the cartoons when we decide it’s necessary to tell the story but we won’t use them gratuitously.

Now Jennifer, Prime Minister Harper said this week that these attacks in Paris, they’re an attack on freedom of expression, on freedom of the press, so how should the press respond to these attacks?

Jennifer Ditchburn:

Well, and I think all of our organizations, and I just want to say that I’m not speaking for the Canadian Press.  We’re in a different situation.  We don’t actually have a publication so it’s not as much of an issue for us.  But every editorial department, every news organization looks at each issue on a case by case basis and they make their decisions on that.  And I really want to emphasize its never black and white.  Speaking completely personally, I think it’s difficult to tell, especially as a broadcaster, it’s probably difficult to tell a story about what happened in Paris without showing what was the trigger or the spark for this horrific violence.  But that being said, in a different year, in a different context, with different things happening on the world stage, we don’t as journalists operate in a vacuum.  We have to consider all the implications of what we write and who is going to be harmed by what we publish.  What’s the public interest versus other interests that are at play?  Are we publishing something just to make a buck?  Is there a possibility that we’ll spark violence by publishing something?  And in fact, that was a consideration of this Canadian government back in 2006 when a Dutch publication was publishing similar types of cartoons and the government said hey, are we going to be putting our troops at risk if we support the publication of those incendiary cartoons?  And those are precisely the kind of ethical…it’s an ethical decision, right, that journalists are making.

Jacques Bourbeau:

Now there are many Canadian media outlets that are refusing to republish these cartoons and here are quotes from a couple of them.  The Globe and Mail says, “One doesn’t need to show a cartoon to show the story.  The story is the killings, not the cartoons.”  The CBC saying, “We are being consistent with our historic journalist principles around the story, not because of fear, but out of respect for the police and sensibilities of the mass of Muslim believers.”  What do you think of these rationales?

Jennifer Ditchburn:

Well I think it’s so difficult.  I mean often we have cause to offend people by what we print and I think in the case of the CBC they have a particular mandate and they have a commitment to the Canadian diversity and so on.  I think that they are in a completely different category than other media organizations.  But again, I just have to return to the fact, this isn’t a zero sum game, it’s not black and white and I think in Canada the debate around this issue about publication, which incidentally I don’t think is the central issue behind the Charlie Habdo attacks, but I also think the debate in Canada has become a bit loaded.  There are people who I think are taking advantage of this to score points against the CBC, against other media elites for their own sort of political purposes, and I think that’s unfortunate.  Why not talk about the work that Canadian journalists are doing covering extremism?  All the money that your organization, my organization has spent in Afghanistan covering these issues that the CBC and others, the Globe and Mail have sent and put their reporters in harm’s way to cover these issues.  I think that’s the kind of thing that we should be talking about and celebrating perhaps rather than focusing on this.

Jacques Bourbeau:

And this is a debate that’s usually just between journalists but I’d venture to say that in the last few days, a lot of Canadians have joined in this conversation.  Jennifer, I’d like to thank you for joining us and sharing your thoughts.

Jennifer Ditchburn:

Thank you.

Jacques Bourbeau:

You’re welcome.

That’s our show for today.  Tom will be back next week.  And we leave you now with a tribute to the four cartoonists who lost their lives in Paris this week.