Transcript: Season 4, Episode 16

Watch: The full broadcast of The West Block with Tom Clark, aired Dec. 28

Host: Tom Clark

Guest Interviews: General David Petraeus, Robert Zoellick, Barry McLoughlin, Susan Delacourt, John Weston

Location: Ottawa

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On this Sunday, rethinking the relationship with our North American neighbours: retired US Army General, David Petraeus and former World Bank President, Robert Zoellick on their call for a new focus.

Plus, party leaders return in the New Year with less than 10 months until the next election: a panel of strategists with their best plan of attack for Stephen Harper, Tom Mulcair and Justin Trudeau.

And, a New Year with new resolutions, like many Canadians, MPs are setting new fitness goals. How they find the time and hope to inspire the rest of the country.

It is Sunday, December the 28th and from the nation’s capital, I’m Tom Clark. And you are in The West Block.

Well a new report is calling for a major shift in the relationship between the US, Canada and Mexico. The three countries already work together in many areas but this would elevate their partnership to a whole new level. To explain, here it is, your weekly West Block Primer:

Fortress North America, the idea is to secure the continent, push out the perimeters of Canada, the United States and Mexico. It’s an idea being pitched by two very high profile American leaders who want to ease in-country border controls and allow easier north-south traffic. All three countries would need more cooperation on immigration rules and both Canada and the United States would need to help Mexico with its crime problems.

On the economic front, Fortress North America would work to be a more competitive North America, pushing trade deals around the globe as a block.

For energy, the new North America would be fully integrated, including oil and gas. For this idea to work though, the Keystone pipeline would have to be built. Electricity grids and links increased. And there would be pressure to use natural resources from one country to help another facing disasters, drought and disease.

Three separate countries, once competing against each other would join forces as a new North America.

Well joining me now, the authors of the report retired General David Petraeus who had a long and distinguished military career, among other things. He commanded forces on the ground in Iraq and then later in Afghanistan. He is also a former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency.

And Robert Zoellick, the former President of the World Bank, someone who has also had a long distinguished history of service to his country, serving in many high level positions in various administrations. And welcome to you both. Awfully good to have you here.

In this report that you’ve done, you are doing nothing less in my view, than trying to reimagine North America. And I want to deal with this first of all on a security level because it is so much of what drives policy in both countries. Are you foreseeing the idea that we will have a common security perimeter around North America and that implies everything from a common immigration policy onwards, General?

General David Petraeus:

Well first of all, let’s just talk about the biggest of the big ideas in the task force report and that is that we ought to pay more attention to each other. In truth, it’s really about the United States paying more attention to its number one and two trading partners, who are of course Canada and Mexico. With respect to security, certainly we would like to be more trilateral where we can but we will be bilateral where we must. But ultimately, certainly, envisioning a day where protection could start at the outer borders of our three countries, rather than that focus that has always been on the borders between us.

Tom Clark:

Does that bring up an interesting question of sovereignty, Mr. Zoellick, in this sense, that if we did get to that point that the general is talking about where we have in a sense a common immigration policy, if you enter through any port in North America, you enter all the countries? But speaking as one of the smaller countries here, would it not be that American immigration policies would prevail, that American immigration standards would become the standard North America and how do you sell that to Canada and Mexico?

General David Petraeus:
Smaller in population, not in size.

Tom Clark:

Okay, fair enough.

Robert Zoellick:

Tom Clark:

Let me ask a difficult question but one that nevertheless people are asking because in your report for instance, you say that Canada and the United States, have an interest in helping Mexico deal with their organized drug cartels and the level of crime and terror that they have in Mexico. A lot of people out here might say why is that my problem, number one? And secondly, if we’re reimaging a North American, why have Mexico in it because it almost seems that that’s the one part of the puzzle that doesn’t look like the other parts.

General David Petraeus:

Well Mexico adds a great deal to what we have in the continent. In fact, look President Peña Nieto has done in the first two years of his administration is really quite remarkable and historic. It’s unprecedented in fact. Sixteen constitutional reforms in his first year, more than both his predecessors…or all three of his predecessors did in fact in their 18 years, the implementing legislation and subsequent year and now beginning the process of actually implementing. So the economic prospects of Mexico which are already impressive are really quite exciting. Mexico is going to have its own energy revolution. It’s already the number four auto exporter in the world with the prospect of actually climbing higher. It has low labour. Lower costs now than labour in China and linked by a ground line of communication to the United States. It’s a source of the some of the demographic goodness, frankly, in the greater North American continent. So again, this is about all three countries, each of which has significant strengths, some of which have limitations to be sure, all of us. But the complimentary effect and the collective whole here is definitely much greater than just the sum of the parts.

Robert Zoellick:

You just take you know, we have the 20^th anniversary or NAFTA and the US had a free trade agreement with Canada beforehand when it started a negotiation with Mexico, Canada wanted to be part of that so we created a North American agreement. That was critically important in the political modernization process, about orienting Mexico towards North America, the rules, the procedures, the economic development that will be an important part for all three of us dealing with Asia, Latin America and others. And Mexico offers Canada and the United States again, a special connection with Latin America. It’s the pivot if you will, in terms of sort of Latin American developments. So when we think about security, I think it’s important to broaden it beyond sort of the traditional notion. And Mexico will be an important part of our future: three democracies, 500 million people; lots of capabilities.

Tom Clark:

Will we ever become the EU?

General David Petraeus:

We don’t think so, and in fact, we didn’t promote that idea. We think that there are historic reasons. They’re reasons of sovereignty, sensitivities and so forth, but there certainly can be even greater integration, noting that these three economies are already very, very highly integrated as a result of 20 years of implementation of the North American Free Trade Act.

Tom Clark:

How on earth did a pipeline become the defining issue between Canada and the United States? A pipeline? Robert?

Robert Zoellick:

Well I think there’s some fault on the part of the United States. There are about 70 oil pipelines and I think about 48 natural gas pipelines already in North America. And the reason that pipeline is important is because of some of the oil sands development in Canada just as we’ve had a Shell oil revolution and others. And as David mentioned, this is a possibility for all three countries that can really turbocharge the economies, not only in the production and the basic development, but kind of the advantages it gives our industry. As part of this, you need an integrated infrastructure, and the pipeline should be part of that. There are various reasons that get caught up in sort of US politics. Canadians can see the debate in the course of the United States and frankly, just speaking personally, I don’t think it’s the proper way to treat an ally and a partner.

Tom Clark:

You’ve said in your report, in a few places, that we should be looking at resources as North American resources that we should be mapping them as such; we should be treating them as such. From a Canadian sensitivity, I’m wondering whether that’s a bit of a problem in terms of a sell and here’s what I mean. You’re running out of water in California, in Arizona and in Texas. We’ve got lots of water. This, under current regulations, this is Canadian water. When you redesign this, is there a danger that people are going to say well what you really want to do is embrace our resources as American resources?

General David Petraeus:

No, the idea is to be complimentary in what it is that we do with the respective resources that we have. Again, there’s no intent to go to the level of integration of the EU. There is again a great sensitivity through the sovereignty of each of the three nations of the greater North American continent, but each of these has some strengths, again that could help offset shortcomings in the others, and to the extent that each country is willing to integrate those various areas, so much the better. If it’s not, then there are limits to it that should be observed.

Tom Clark:

It’s a fascinating study: North America, Time for a New Focus. The authors: retired General David Petraeus and Robert Zoellick, former President of the World Bank. I thank you both very much for being here. Thanks for your time.

General David Petraeus:

Great to be with you Tom.

Robert Zoellick:

Thanks very much.

Tom Clark:

Coming up, party leaders will return for the New Year with a new focus on the election. What should their priorities be? Our expert panel is next.

Break

Tom Clark:

Welcome back. Well Parliament is not set to return until late next month so what do the political leaders need to do after these holidays to shore up support for the election which is coming next year? What would political watchers and strategists advise? Well we have the answer to that question because we’ve got two of the best sitting right here. Barry McLoughlin of McLoughlin Media joins us a political journalist from the Toronto Star and author, I might add of Shopping for Votes, Susan Delacourt. Welcome to you both.

I want to mystically and magically transport us now to the office of Stephen Harper, which is actually just behind us. And you’re sitting down with Stephen Harper and his closest advisors. You’re looking at the polls. You’re seeing that he is still behind Justin Trudeau at this point. Susan, what do you advise him to do to turn that ship around to make himself competitive for majority government again?

Susan Delacourt:

Well we’ve seen that he’s not on a bad path right now. He’s regained a lot from last year, but I think this year, as last year, as six years ago, as eight years ago, I would tell him, I think he was onto something with the idea that you don’t have to like me, but you should respect me. I think he’s handled that very well. I think that was good advice. Maybe he gave it to himself. The problem is, is that respect piece is out of step with his fights with the Supreme Court, his fights with the Public Service, his constant decent into partisanship. If he wants people to respect the institutions of government, including himself, he’s got to show that to the other institutions. So I would say, put those things back together again. I think he takes away from his…he steals his own thunder with all these attacks on institutions. Elections Canada, his constant partisanship I think is getting in the way.

Tom Clark:

Barry, what’s your advice to him?

Barry McLoughlin:

I think the first thing I would say is sir, it really isn’t about you. It’s about the voter. And the voter is going to ask one question, you know, who do you stand for? Who are you going to fight for? Are you going to fight for me? And he has positioned himself as the friend of the middle class. And therefore you saw his announcement on income splitting. Perfectly orchestrated, it was a great dress rehearsal for what they’re all going to look like on the election campaign. And they’re pre-spending billions of dollars and he’s hoping that cheque of course will come out on July 1^st. So that was an example of where he knows he has to be there for middle class voters. Secondly, part of his brand has been the military. Historically, he’s the one that really made it a key part of his whole brand yet he’s been dogged by the entire Vets issue with Julian Fantino.

Tom Clark:

Well dogged and damaged…

Barry McLoughlin:

…and damaged by it so as one could easily say, sir you can spend twice the amount of money, you still have a problem here. So he has to manage that issue well. And thirdly, I think because of the fallen oil prices, because of decline in revenue, he is going to face a situation in a budget in March in which he may not be anywhere near a balanced budget. And that is going to create a bit of a problem because he’s already pre-committed to spending all those millions of dollars. So it’s still a rocky road to get there but as Susan said he’s in a far better position he was than a year ago.

Tom Clark:

Okay, we’re going to leave Langevin Block and we’re going to go to wherever Justin Trudeau hangs out right now. And we are going to get to Tom Mulcair, but Liberal office. So you’re sitting there with Justin Trudeau, he points out to you incidentally that he has been number one in the polls ever since he was elected Liberal Leader. So, does he just keep on doing what he is doing? I mean he is number one?

Susan Delacourt:

Number one but not climbing number one, he’s just holding that. And we’ve seen, as Harper is coming back, it’s at the expense of Trudeau. The one thing I would tell him and I would tell him this to his face if he was sitting here, is learn the difference between a platitude and a policy. That often when he is talking, he says he’s going to run a values campaign etcetera, etcetera, but often if you listen to him, he’s just saying things that are blindingly obvious and platitudinous. And a long time ago, somebody told me that if you can put not in front of it and say what you’re saying and it sounds ridiculous, then what you have is a platitude. Like, focus on the economy. What political leader is not focused on the economy? So I find that’s where Trudeau is tripping himself up. Two, is he often sounds like he’s reading from a greeting card rather than saying something substantial.

Tom Clark:

Maybe he’s just getting cautious because he’s worried he’s getting close to power and people who get close to power get cautious, but Barry what would you tell him?

Barry McLoughlin:

Well I would agree with that. I think the challenge for him is he is policy light. And he has said oh well we don’t want them to take apart our platform too early, but right now, other than marijuana and another one he didn’t want to go into Iraq, it’s hard to define in really clear terms what he stands for.

Tom Clark:
But does that really matter?

Barry McLoughlin:

Well it does in this sense that because of his own brand in terms of his charisma, his personality, his engagement, his likeability, but the biggest single hit on him he has to know is, is there any “there”, there?

Tom Clark:

Okay, but let me challenge you on this because in the 2008 presidential campaign, in the primaries and then the election itself, I would challenge anybody, and I covered that whole thing, to tell me exactly what Barack Obama stood for in the middle of the primaries? Policy light, he just said it was all “hopey”, “changey” and “Yes We Can.” And he won the presidency of the United States. I am not, by any stretch of the imagination equating Barack Obama to Justin Trudeau but I question this idea of putting policy on the table before you have to.

Barry McLoughlin:

I would just make one distinction to that, I generally agree with your point, except for one thing. To that middle class voter saying are you for me, will you stand up for me and my family? Where is he on that? We know he doesn’t want to income split but we don’t really…we don’t get from him a sense that he gets who they are. And so, therefore, the problem with that is that there is right now not a compelling reason. He’ll get the people that don’t like Stephen Harper; you know he’s getting more than his share of those votes. But in terms of he’s got to look like a future prime minister and he’s not quite there yet.

Tom Clark:

Okay and I think the ballot question, even Justin Trudeau has said the ballot question is going to be, is this a leader of a G8 country and that’s what he’s going to jump over. Look, we have to spend some time talking about Tom Mulcair. So we’re now in the Leader of the Opposition’s office. It’s kind of dower in there because they’ve been trying so hard. He’s such a talented Leader of the Opposition. Susan, did he just in the end, audition for the wrong job?

Susan Delacourt:

Ha, ha, ha, yeah maybe, maybe. My advice to him, and it’s based on a very recent thing, is stop whining. I guess he was out in Courtney, BC recently and he vocalized what we hear from his staff and I know we journalists hear this all the time, is if there are Liberals in the news article or in the piece mentioned before the NDP, phone them and complain and whine and I think the NDP has spent a lot of time thinking of the media as its enemy, spending way too much time obsessed with the Liberals. I would say, stop whining, start realizing that the Conservatives are your enemies, not the Liberals and pull yourself together.

Tom Clark:

Barry, I want your advice. Now here’s a party though and a leader who did put out policy in advance and I don’t think anybody’s really talking about their policy.

Barry McLoughlin:

Well he is the best prosecutor and chief we’ve had. People don’t tend to rally behind and wow we got a great prosecutor and chief here. He’s done a terrific job of that. When he has a case to prosecute as he did on the Duffy Senate thing, I mean he just was amazing on that. He hasn’t done anything fulsomely to replace it. I think the rumours are that I work with his predecessor. I’ll say one thing about Jack Layton that Layton was able to crack that wall into the middle class. He was the guy you could have a beer with. He was also a guy that was able to position himself in a solid way that he wasn’t going to break the bank.

Tom Clark:

So Mulcair’s gotta do more.

Barry McLoughlin:

Mulcair’s gotta do more of that.

Tom Clark:
Okay, on that note, we’ve come to an end.

Susan Delacourt:

We’re going to go for a beer with Mulcair.

Tom Clark:
Ha, ha, ha, okay, Barry McLoughlin, McLoughlin Media. Susan Delacourt of the Toronto Star and author of Shopping for Votes; a great Christmas buy if you haven’t got it already.

Susan Delacourt:

Thanks.

Barry McLoughlin:

Thank you, Tom.

Tom Clark:

Still to come, New Year’s resolutions: how some politicians are setting goals, not only for themselves, but for the country.

Break

My New Year’s resolution, by next year I want to run a full marathon.

Get back to the way I was when I got married.

I should get more rest.

Try to get into the gym 3-4 times a week.

Have more days skiing than I did last year.

Tom Clark:

Ha, ha, your MPs and senators. Well welcome back. It’s time to make those New Year’s resolutions: hit the gym, lose weight, and do more. They’re good goals but as the months pass, there will be excuses: not enough time, too many things to do and oh yeah, that not enough time.

Well we met up with some politicians to talk about the importance of working out together and their fitness resolutions for 2015.

For politicians in Ottawa, those excuses are all too familiar. Between hearings, committee meetings, Question Period and travel back and forth from the riding, finding time to exercise, is difficult. But a group of senators and MPs from all parties have decided to make exercise and spending time together, part of their schedule, and a way to help bridge the political differences.

Female:

Once you get in the gym, there are no parties and you see who else is down there and you talk to each other, and you build friendships across the parties.

Tom Clark:

Twice a week, a group of politicians meet to exercise whenever Parliament is in session. Early Tuesday morning, all year long, they gather at the Centennial Flame. After a few stretches, they head off.

On this morning, it’s pretty cold and icy and the group is smaller than usual, but the few who gather are determined to get their 5K in before meetings on the Hill. Conservative MP, John Weston organizes the weekly runs.

John Weston:
It is part of our sanity that it keeps us healthy, it keeps us effective and it makes us better Canadians.

Male:

It just takes you mind away from some of the problems that you’re having at the moment of some of the issues that you’re dealing with. It’s good for your mind, it’s good for your body and that’s just at least overall better health.

Tom Clark:

On Thursdays, they gather at a swimming pool near Parliament Hill where Olympic swim coach, Pierre Lafontaine offers advice and encouragement.

Pierre Lafontaine:

They have to discipline yourself to give yourself that half hour a day, or an hour a day, or an hour every two days in order to just shut it down, go for a walk, do some cycling, do some running, swimming, whatever it is that you do just to get your frame of mind back in place.

John Weston:

We can become the fittest nation on earth and that’s my goal as we move towards our 150^th celebration to help make Canada the fittest nation on earth.

Tom Clark:

Weston, who represents West Vancouver, successfully authored a bill that goes into law next June, to have the first Saturday of June declared, National Health and Fitness Day. His biggest supporters, well they were his workout buddies. It was an all-party effort.

Elizabeth May:

The culture of politics has become a lot more aggressive and a lot more toxic. And I think the activities that we can have, and there are not very many of them, where we can be friends together, workout together, encourage each other is actually healthier for democracy than being out to get each other.

Tom Clark:

Well that is our show today. I’m Tom Clark, from Ottawa. And I’ll take this opportunity to wish you all a very happy and safe New Year. See you next year.