Transcript: Season 4 Episode 15

Watch:  The full broadcast of episode 15, broadcast December 21, 2014.

Host: Tom Clark

Guest Interviews: Tom Mulcair, Jeff Callaway, Vassy Kapelos, Tim Laidler, David McLeod

Location: Ottawa

On this Sunday, a year end interview with Opposition Leader Tom Mulcair.  Eight of his MPs have left since the last election, how has that hurt his party, and would he consider a coalition after the next election?

Plus, the collapse of the Wildrose Party in Alberta:  the Opposition joins the government.  Canada has never seen anything like it: An interview with the shell-shocked president of Wildrose.

And then, they fought for their country, now they want to join the fight in the House of Commons:  two veterans from two coasts, from two political parties.

It is Sunday, December the 21st and from the nation’s capital, I’m Tom Clark.  And you are in The West Block.

Well it was a move that sent a wave of shock through the Opposition bench.  Glenn Thibeault, until just a few weeks ago, the NDP caucus chair announced last week that he is leaving the NDP to run for the Ontario Liberal Party.  Well that brought the total number of defections and resignations of NDP MPs to eight since the last election.  And to top it off, last week, Deputy Leader, Libby Davies announced she would not be running in the next federal election.

Joining me now from Montreal, is the Leader of the Opposition, Tom Mulcair.  Mr. Mulcair thanks very much for being here. Last week wasn’t a particularly great week for you.  I’m thinking of Glenn Thibeault and his defection to the Ontario Liberals.  How devastating or damaging was that for you?

Tom Mulcair:

People make their own choices.  Glenn’s going to have to explain that one to his former colleagues and frankly to the people of Sudbury.  We’re moving on.  I know that the provincial party is going to be putting up a strong candidate against Mr. Thibeault if he decides to make that run as he said he would and I can guarantee the seat’s going to stay NDP federally.  Other than that, you’re going to have to ask Mr. Thibeault what that was all about because I have been talking to him as recently as 36 hours before discussing political strategy with him.  He didn’t give the slightest indication of the move he was about to pull.

Tom Clark:

I guess what I’m wondering here is, politics is in great measure, all about momentum, and since 2011, I think eight of your MPs have either quit or moved on.  Glenn Thibaut, Libby Davies, the deputy leader not running again.  Are you worried at all that there is the sense of momentum leaving your party when you see this type of bleeding going on?

Tom Mulcair:

Well the loss of Libby Davies which I had known about of course for some time because she had told me she had not planned to run in the next election, that’s a great loss because she’s a wonderful colleague.  She’s a great team leader.  She’s got incredible spirit and drive in caucus and she’s always had my admiration as just that, as team leader.  She chairs our priorities and planning committee, so it’s a great loss.  But she’s been in public life for 40 years and she said look it’s just time to hang it up.  A 2015 general election for the first time in Canadian history, three parties vying for power:  the NDP has got a great team.  We’ve got experience.  People know us.  They know that we’re the ones who will fight for things like free universal public child care.  There are distinct differences between the NDP on the one hand, and the Liberals and Conservatives who frankly on most social, economic and environmental issues are on exactly the same page.  So if people want change this time around, if they really want to get the change they’re hoping for, they can vote for the NDP.

Tom Clark:

Well let’s deal with some policy and take a look at the political calendar coming up in 2015.  One of the first things is going to be the budget, may come as early as February.  Do you believe at this stage, Mr. Mulcair that we are still in a surplus situation?

Tom Mulcair:

Probably not but to the extent that the whole exercise is smoke and mirrors, it’s quite possible they’ll announce one.  Don’t forget, none of those numbers are ever going to have to be tested against the reality of a full fiscal year, so they can announce whatever they want at the beginning of 2015.  By the time the election campaign starts in September, no one’s really going to be able to measure those numbers, Tom.  But I will tell you one thing, if Stephen Harper boasts about a surplus; it’ll be in large measure because he’s proposing to cut up to $36 billion dollars in the transfers for provinces for health care.  Now NDP governments over the years are the ones who brought in free universal public medical care, starting with Tommy Douglas in Saskatchewan.  We are the free public health insurance model and we’re going to fight to make sure Mr. Harper puts that money back and if he doesn’t, we’ll be the ones to do it because that’s a priority for us.  We don’t want to go back to a Canada where the size of a family’s pay cheque determines whether or not their sick child was seen by a doctor.

Tom Clark:

Let’s move on to the next thing on the agenda and that’s probably sometime in March.  We are going to have to decide as a Parliament, whether we recommit to the fight against ISIL in Iraq and perhaps in Syria.  You’ve opposed it before and I assume that you would oppose it again.  Would you?

Tom Mulcair:

In all likelihood, don’t forget, the NDP looks at these things on a case by case basis.  You might recall that when it was a question of the United Nations asking member countries to go into Libya, the NDP voted for those air strikes by Canadian Forces in Libya.  When Mr. Harper and others transformed that outside of the UN mandate into regime change we said hold on, that’s not what the United Nations authorized.  Same thing here, it shouldn’t be forgotten that despite the horrors, and they are very real horrors that we see from ISIS and ISIL on the ground, everything that’s playing out now is the direct result of the last misguided war in Iraq and this is neither a United Nations mandate nor a NATO mandate.  And in the case of the NDP, we can’t see backing that sort of mission without international consensus at the United Nations or at least with our NATO partners, neither of which exists now.

Tom Clark:

Let me move you to the end effectively of the 2015 political calendar and that’s going to be the election.  We presume it’s going to be in October.  All the numbers in the polling suggest right now that there is a minority government somewhere in the mix here.  If that’s the case in October of 2015, would you rule out a coalition with any other party?

Tom Mulcair:

Don’t forget, we’re the ones who made it a priority in 2008 to put the coalition idea on the table.  We did that with the Liberals.  We proposed it.  We wrote and we signed it, and the Liberals walked away from it.  So what happens after an election, we’ll have to wait and see.  We’re going to be gunning for a majority NDP government.  We’ve got a great team.  We’re fully financed.  We’re ready for a big campaign of big ideas.  We’ve put $15 a day child care on the table.  We’re talking about a $15-an-hour federal minimum wage.  These are things that are connecting, Tom, with Canadians across the country.  We’re going to have that campaign. What happens after the campaign is a different kettle of fish but I just know that any time we’ve talked about that because we did think it was a priority to get rid of the Conservatives because of the ideas and the things that we consider really negative that they’ve done to Canada on the world stage and here at home.  They’ve created more inequality.  I’ve always considered it my main job to try to remove inequality in our society.

Tom Clark:

Mr. Mulcair awfully good having you here and thanks very much for giving us a preview of your campaign speech for the next election campaign.  But in the meantime, I wish you and your family…

Tom Mulcair:

All the best to you and your family for the holidays.

Tom Clark:
And to you too Mr. Mulcair.  Thanks very much.

Well still to come, the stunning collapse of the Opposition in Alberta and what it means for the men and women who still believe in the Wildrose Party.

And then later, they picked up arms for our country, now they want to join the fight here:  one running for the Conservatives, another running against them.  We’ll find out why.

Break

Tom Clark:

Welcome back. Well it was a jaw-dropping move in Edmonton and it shook politics everywhere in this country.  Daniel Smith, the Leader of the Opposition led eight of her fellow Wildrose members into enemy lines and they surrendered.  In return, she gets to be part of the government that apparently she once despised.

Well joining me now to discuss, this is the President of the Wildrose Party, Jeff Callaway.  Mr. Callaway thanks very much for coming in.  So how shell-shocked are you right now?

Jeff Callaway:

Well you know it was a bit of a shock for all of our members in the party but frankly, the resolve that has risen from this has been quite overwhelming frankly and it’s really reinvigorated the base, our constituencies, our volunteers and our donors.

Tom Clark:

Well let me take you back about 10 days ago because there was a Christmas party two Fridays ago, and you were one of the people incidentally who helped draft Danielle Smith to the party.  So at that party, did she…we know now that she was in full negotiations at that point, did she tell you anything?

Jeff Callaway:

No, in fact, it wasn’t two weeks ago, it was just Friday of a little over a week ago, frankly.  Just a few days and there was no inkling.  There was no indication.  There have been no discussions with anyone on the executive about a merger or anything of this sort and you know it’s very disappointing because…

Tom Clark:

Well I would imagine disappointing is the understatement.  I mean the fact of the matter is, not only did she deceive you I guess, but you know she lied to you.

Jeff Callaway:

Well, is it a lie or error of omission or however you would like to characterize it, but regardless, you know we’re very strong.  We’re still the official Opposition here in Alberta, albeit with a reduced caucus, but you know what, we’ve been lower before.  I mean I was also president from 2008 to 2010 when we experienced our strongest growth in much of the same kinds of political and economic conditions that we’re in today.  And frankly, I’m rather optimistic about our prospects going forward.

Tom Clark:

Well that is the definition of optimism but Jeff Callaway, are you sort of in retrospect kind of happy you lost the last provincial election because if you had won, she would have been the premier and now you’ve sort of seen what sort of person she is politically.  You must be happy you lost.

Jeff Callaway:

Well, I don’t think anyone’s ever happy that they lose politically, but you know what our message surrounding fiscal conservatism and social responsibility, those are things that we’re going to continue to pressure the government on.  We’ve been tremendously effective as an official Opposition.  We have in essence forced the resignation of two PC premiers and I think it can be properly characterized is that we are the tail that wags the government dog here in Alberta and we’re going to continue to do that.  Our party’s about more than just any one person.

Tom Clark:

Well in fairness though, you did all those things when you had a leader.  Now that you don’t and they jumped out of the trench and went over to the other army and so on, money is the life blood of politics, how on earth are you going to get anybody to donate to a party where the leader and most of the caucus decided the heck with you guys, we’re going to the other side.

Jeff Callaway:

Well as I mentioned, it’s really fired up our base and actually we sent out an e-mail to our members yesterday morning that’s on track to probably be our best fund-raising e-mail ever in this party.  And you know, we’re just…I can’t tell you how overwhelming the support just from in general Albertans and the members have been.  And you know we’re going to keep going and building.  We’ll announce a leadership race process here in the beginning of January.  You know we’ve got an announcement coming up on who our interim leader is going to be and we’re all working forward and reinvigorated.  We’ve raised over $2 million dollars a year.  We’ve structured our party such that we get donations from hundreds, if not thousands of individual donors.  We’re not beholden to singular large cheques like the PC party was in the 2012 election.

Tom Clark:

We’re going to have to leave it there but Mr. Callaway thank you very much for joining us and I hope next year is a better year for you than this one.  But thanks so much for being here.

Jeff Callaway:

I’m sure it will be.

Tom Clark:

Okay, thank you.

Well joining me now to discuss the broader implications of all of this, a keen observer of the Alberta political scene, Vassy Kapelos of Global News.  Vassy what do you make of this?  I mean he’s saying this is the best thing that ever happened to Wildrose, I mean really?

Vassy Kapelos:

Yeah, it’s an interesting statement for sure and I think you brought up a really good point.  Sure the base is angry and invigorated right now but they were able to raise a lot of money and do all they did when they had Danielle Smith as leader.  And to make no mistake, what she did was political opportunism but without her helming that party, I don’t know what the future looks like for them.

Tom Clark:

Well you know a lot about how this deal was done.  I don’t know anybody who’s got better contacts in Alberta politics than you do.  But what we all understood was, that she was going to become deputy premier and that they were going to be inserted into the cabinet.  Well it hasn’t happened yet, what are you hearing about that?

Vassy Kapelos:

Yeah, I’m hearing that there was a lot more promise than was delivered.  I think from the Wildrose perspective, this was looked at as a merger; clearly, not looked at that way from the PC perspective and especially Jim Prentice.  There was to be some sort of cabinet shuffle yesterday.  The staff was promised they’d stay on and in the end, none of that ended up happening.

Tom Clark:

Well 10 staff members in fact and now we’re trying to crowd source some money to get through Christmas, right?

Vassy Kapelos:

It’s unbelievable, exactly.  So I think that also shows when we’re looking into the future exactly what kind of role these new PCers will end up playing and I think there’s no doubt that Jim Prentice is in charge here, and I don’t think he’s going to give them a lot more room.

Tom Clark:

We’ve never seen anything like this in Canadian politics before, I mean so there’s no play book for this one.  Is Wildrose dead?

Vassy Kapelos:

Good question, I would say no.  In Alberta politics, I don’t know who you can count out.  You can’t count the PCs out, that’s for sure, but I don’t think they’re dead.  I think they are going to struggle and I wonder if they’ll remain on the fringes.  I know they’re optimistic that they won’t but without Danielle Smith or someone like her, it’s going to be tough for them to compete with this newly invigorated and stronger than ever political dynasty, the PCs.

Tom Clark:

You know when we always used to think that Newfoundland politics was the rock and roll scene in Canada but Alberta’s taken over.  Vassy Kapelos thanks for being here, I appreciate your time.

Vassy Kapelos:

Thanks for having me Tom.

Tom Clark:

Well coming up next, some veterans are so angry with Stephen Harper’s government that they are running to replace them.  We’ll find out why.

Break

Tom Clark:

Welcome back.  Well it’s hard to think of another political mess as damaging as what is going on between the government and many military veterans.  Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino has both evaded and alternately berated those who have complained about bad treatment but the Auditor General has strongly criticized his department for mishandling its duties.

Well joining me now are two former Afghanistan veterans:  Tim Laidler is a candidate for the Conservative Party, he joins us from Vancouver.  And, David McLeod is a candidate for the Liberal Party, he joins us from Halifax.  And welcome to you both.

It’s interesting that you’re both veterans but David, let me start with you.  You were a card carrying member of the Conservative Party.  Now you’re running as a candidate in Central Nova against Peter Mackay.  For you, is this all about the Veterans Affairs issue?

David McLeod:

No, it’s not.  Actually Tom, it’s really important to understand that this isn’t just about veterans.  My first priority is the economy in Central Nova.  We’ve had 15.5 per cent unemployment.  The second one of course is the environment and there are many issues within Central Nova that have to be addressed as well.  On top of that, yes the veterans issue is very important because let’s not forget, that’s where I came from.

Tom Clark:
Tim, let me go to you because what we’re hearing a lot of these days are veterans who are upset with the government.  You’re actually trying to represent the government.  Have you had any blowback or pushback at all from any of your former comrades?

Tim Laidler:

No, not so much.  And my experience with the government has been quite positive.  The reason I’m running for the Conservative Party, it started when I came back from Afghanistan.  I found a program that worked for me that helped me transition back from the University of British Columbia and the federal government came in, the politicians came in, supported that program, helped to grow it nationally with me and it’s a big part of the reason I’m running because I’ve seen how you can make a difference.

Tom Clark:

Yeah, but I’m wondering about that because you know there are many veterans, including as I said in the introduction, the Auditor General of Canada who has said in fact there is a lot broken in that department.  I mean, are you saying, Tim, that what you are seeing right now in Veterans Affairs is kind of the way it should be?

Tim Laidler:

No, there is a lot we need to do and there is a lot I’ve done in the last five years, working to help veterans, especially around the areas of mental health.  I ended up going back to the University of British Columbia and doing a masters in counseling psychology so I know this issue intimately.  I know we need to do more about it and there is more innovation we need to do to actually help treat things like post traumatic stress disorder and not just in the veteran population.  We’ve heard a lot about the suicides, but that’s a real issue for many Canadians, and it’s something we need to do as a nation.

Tom Clark:
okay, so David, let me throw this over to you then.  What Tim seems to be saying is that you know progress is being made, money is being spent, the majority of veterans seem to be happy with things so where is your point of contention then with this issue?

David McLeod:

Well to begin with, I think the entire thing, the entire Veterans Affairs Canada is in systematic failure and that’s indicated by the ongoing lawsuit as well as the other potential lawsuits that exist.  For example, let’s go back to Dennis Minogue when he had his lawsuit.  He won $880 million dollars for veterans.  But that’s still not complete because Minister Blaney promised that the earning loss benefit would be sorted out as well.  It hasn’t been.  On top of that, there is the ongoing Afghan war vets.  That lawsuit is continuing on and that’s a real challenge to the whole cornerstone of veterans’ care, which is the new Veterans Charter, which is failing.  Third is, the Veterans Review and Appeal Board.  Individual veterans are suing the Veterans Review and Appeal Board…not suing, sorry, challenging them in court because they are failing.  Now that’s the gateway, that’s the entry point, the gateway for many veterans and if they’re having a hard time pushing through that system, then they’re failed.

Tom Clark:

Okay, let me stop you there because I want Tim to deal with this.  And Tim, it does seem that the government that you want to represent is spending an awful lot of time in court facing veterans, including a statement in one court case where the government is maintaining that the Veterans Charter is actually just a political document that doesn’t really mean all that much.  I mean how do you defend that?

Tim Laidler:

Yeah, and you know the struggle with the new Veterans Charter, it is real.  And again, this is a document that was brought in by the Liberal government.  It got support from all three parties and we’ve been trying to work to make adjustments to this document to make it grow, and remember, the programs that are being put in place, they’re for a new generation of veteran.  They put this document in place and the Liberals themselves said it was intended to be a living document and to be debated upon and changed and grow the programs as a general population of veterans change and I think that’s what happened.  And I’ve seen firsthand myself; they’ve implemented new programs like the one I was involved in, along with many, many others.  And I believe that it’s the Conservative government that’s going to continue to make the adjustments necessary to do right by our veterans, like myself and like my colleagues.

Tom Clark:

But, but, but Tim, you know the government is saying in court, that this is a political document that really means nothing.  That’s what they’re saying in a court of law.  Now if that’s the case, a lot of veterans are saying, and you know David was making the point. A lot of them are appearing in court, saying well, what is the fundamental deal between the government and the veterans because a lot of veterans think that it is badly, badly broken.

Tim Laidler:

Yeah, I’m not an expert on the legal matters at hand.  What I do know, is there are programs available, and again, in my day job, where we go and talk to veterans and we explain to them the benefits that they are eligible to get, most are unaware of them.  Most don’t understand them and we try so hard to communicate exactly what they’re eligible for.  And once we get all the veterans into the new system and get them on the Earning Loss Benefit, which again, that’s monthly payments that come into veterans if they’re injured until they can work again, and that’s on top of the lump sum payment.  Many veterans don’t understand that there are those two programs available to them and that’s just an example.

Tom Clark:

Let me throw this to David.  What was interesting to me though is, here you’ve got two veterans, two Afghan veterans who are seeing this situation obviously from completely different points of view, but go ahead, what were you going to say David?

David McLeod:

What has to do with the Earning Loss Benefit, that’s not completely resolved, I mean you know Tim, you feel that people have free access to it but in fact they don’t, it’s actually restricted access.  And I think that’s mainly the real challenges that veterans in general are facing right now is a restricted access, the very tight access to these various programs because many of the programs are zero loaded.  And zero loaded means that money goes back or is recycled back to the government and that’s how you ended up with $1.133 billion dollars.  I mean Fantino’s been running around screaming that there’s $5 billion dollars going to veterans when in fact, there is not.  You know if you take that $5 billion, subtract $1.133 billion you’re not left with very much compared with what is being thrown out there in the media. So I think there is a lot of misunderstanding.

Tim Laidler:

I’ll agree with David…

Tom Clark:

Tim, I’ll give the last 15 seconds to you Tim, go ahead.

Tim Laidler:

I’ll agree with David that you know the issue here isn’t necessarily the program itself. It’s getting access to the program.  It’s advertising the programs.  Like I’ve said, there are still a small percentage of veterans that actually go to the government for any services.  We need to grow that number by advertising it and by cutting red tape to make it more accessible, and it’s the Conservative government that’s always done that and will continue to do it.

Tom Clark:

Okay, well we’ve heard the opening shots in what is going to be a battle between veterans over the issue of Veterans Affairs.  Tim Laidler and Dave McLeod, thank you very much for joining us today, I appreciate your time.

Tim Laidler:

Thank you.

David McLeod:

Pleasure’s been mine.

Tom Clark:

Well that’s our show for this week.  Thanks very much for joining us, and to you and yours, a very Merry Christmas.  I’m Tom Clark.  Join us here again next Sunday for another edition of The West Block.

 THE WEST BLOCK

Episode 15, Season 4

Sunday, December 21, 2014

Host: Tom Clark

Guest Interviews: Tom Mulcair, Jeff Callaway, Vassy Kapelos,

Tim Laidler, David McLeod

Location: Ottawa

On this Sunday, a year end interview with Opposition Leader Tom Mulcair.  Eight of his MPs have left since have left since the last election, how has that hurt his party, and would he consider a coalition after the next election?

Plus, the collapse of the Wildrose Party in Alberta:  the Opposition joins the government.  Canada has never seen anything like it.  An interview with the shell shocked president of Wildrose.

And then, they fought for their country, now they want to join the fight in the House of Commons:  two veterans from two coasts, from two political parties.

It is Sunday, December the 21st and from the nation’s capital, I’m Tom Clark.  And you are in The West Block.

Well it was a move that sent a wave of shock through the Opposition bench.  Glenn Thibeault, until just a few weeks ago, the NDP caucus chair announced last week that he is leaving the NDP to run for the Ontario Liberal Party.  Well that brought the total number of defections and resignations of NDP MPs to eight since the last election.  And to top it off, last week, Deputy Leader, Libby Davies announced she would not be running in the next federal election.

Joining me now from Montreal, is the Leader of the Opposition, Tom Mulcair.  Mr. Mulcair thanks very much for being here. Last week wasn’t a particularly great week for you.  I’m thinking of Glenn Thibeault and his defection to the Ontario Liberals.  How devastating or damaging was that for you?

Tom Mulcair:

People make their own choices.  Glen’s going to have to explain that one to his former colleagues and frankly to the people of Sudbury.  We’re moving on.  I know that the provincial party is going to be putting up a strong candidate against Mr. Thibeault if he decides to make that run as he said he would and I can guarantee the seats going to stay NDP federally.  Other than that, you’re going to have to ask Mr. Thibeault what that was all about because I have been talking to him as recently as 36 hours before discussing political strategy with him.  He didn’t give the slightest indication of the move he was about to pull.

Tom Clark:

I guess what I’m wondering here is, politics is in great measure, all about momentum, and since 2011, I think eight of your MPs have either quit or moved on.  Glenn Thibaut, Libby Davies, the deputy leader not running again.  Are you worried at all that there is the sense of momentum leaving your party when you see this type of bleeding going on?

Tom Mulcair:

Well the loss of Libby Davies which I had known about of course for some time because she had told me she had not planned to run in the next election, that’s a great loss because she’s a wonderful colleague.  She’s a great team leader.  She’s got incredible spirit and drive in caucus and she’s always had my admiration as just that, as team leader.  She chairs our priorities and planning committee, so it’s a great loss.  But she’s been in public life for 40 years and she said look it’s just time to hang it up.  A 2015 general election for the first time in Canadian history, three parties vying for power:  the NDP has got a great team.  We’ve got experience.  People know us.  They know that we’re the ones who will fight for things like free universal public child care.  There are distinct differences between the NDP on the one hand, and the Liberals and Conservatives who frankly on most social, economic and environmental issues are on exactly the same page.  So if people want change this time around, if they really want to get the change they’re hoping for, they can vote for the NDP.

Tom Clark:

Well let’s deal with some policy and take a look at the political calendar coming up in 2015.  One of the first things is going to be the budget, may come as early as February.  Do you believe at this stage, Mr. Mulcair that we are still in a surplus situation?

Tom Mulcair:

Probably not but to the extent that the whole exercise is smoke and mirrors, it’s quite possible they’ll announce one.  Don’t forget, none of those numbers are ever going to have to be tested against the reality of a full fiscal year, so they can announce whatever they want at the beginning of 2015.  By the time the election campaign starts in September, no one’s really going to be able to measure those numbers, Tom.  But I will tell you one thing, if Stephen Harper boasts about a surplus; it’ll be in large measure because he’s proposing to cut up to $36 billion dollars in the transfers for provinces for health care.  Now NDP governments over the years are the ones who brought in free universal public medical care, starting with Tommy Douglas in Saskatchewan.  We are the free public health insurance model and we’re going to fight to make sure Mr. Harper puts that money back and if he doesn’t, we’ll be the ones to do it because that’s a priority for us.  We don’t want to go back to a Canada where the size of a family’s pay cheque determines whether or not their sick child was seen by a doctor.

Tom Clark:

Let’s move on to the next thing on the agenda and that’s probably sometime in March.  We are going to have to decide as a Parliament, whether we recommit to the fight against ISIL in Iraq and perhaps in Syria.  You’ve opposed it before and I assume that you would oppose it again.  Would you?

Tom Mulcair:

In all likelihood, don’t forget, the NDP looks at these things on a case by case basis.  You might recall that when it was a question of the United Nations asking member countries to go into Libya, the NDP voted for those air strikes by Canadian Forces in Libya.  When Mr. Harper and others transformed that outside of the UN mandate into regime change we said hold on, that’s not what the United Nations authorized.  Same thing here, it shouldn’t be forgotten that despite the horrors, and they are very real horrors that we see from ISIS and ISIL on the ground, everything that’s playing out now is the direct result of the last misguided war in Iraq and this is neither a United Nations mandate nor a NATO mandate.  And in the case of the NDP, we can’t see backing that sort of mission without international consensus at the United Nations or at least with our NATO partners, neither of which exists now.

Tom Clark:

Let me move you to the end effectively of the 2015 political calendar and that’s going to be the election.  We presume it’s going to be in October.  All the numbers in the polling suggest right now that there is a minority government somewhere in the mix here.  If that’s the case in October of 2015, would you rule out a coalition with any other party?

Tom Mulcair:

Don’t forget, we’re the ones who made it a priority in 2008 to put the coalition idea on the table.  We did that with the Liberals.  We proposed it.  We wrote and we signed it, and the Liberals walked away from it.  So what happens after an election, we’ll have to wait and see.  We’re going to be gunning for a majority NDP government.  We’ve got a great team.  We’re fully financed.  We’re ready for a big campaign of big ideas.  We’ve put $15 dollar a day child care on the table.  We’re talking about a $15 dollar and hour federal minimum wage.  These are things that are connecting, Tom, with Canadians across the country.  We’re going to have that campaign. What happens after the campaign is a different kettle of fish but I just know that any time we’ve talked about that because we did think it was a priority to get rid of the Conservatives because of the ideas and the things that we consider really negative that they’ve done to Canada on the world stage and here at home.  They’ve created more inequality.  I’ve always considered it my main job to try to remove inequality in our society.

Tom Clark:

Mr. Mulcair awfully good having you here and thanks very much for giving us a preview of your campaign speech for the next election campaign.  But in the meantime, I wish you and your family…

Tom Mulcair:

All the best to you and your family for the holidays.

Tom Clark:
And to you too Mr. Mulcair.  Thanks very much.

Well still to come, the stunning collapse of the Opposition in Alberta and what it means for the men and women who still believe in the Wildrose Party.

And then later, they picked up arms for our country, now they want to join the fight here:  one running for the Conservatives, another running against them.  We’ll find out why.

Break

Tom Clark:

Welcome back. Well it was a jaw dropping move in Edmonton and it shook politics everywhere in this country.  Daniel Smith, the Leader of the Opposition led eight of her fellow Wildrose members into enemy lines and they surrendered.  In return, she gets to be part of the government that apparently she once despised.

Well joining me now to discuss, this is the President of the Wildrose Party, Jeff Callaway.  Mr. Callaway thanks very much for coming in.  So how shell shocked are you right now?

Jeff Callaway:

Well you know it was a bit of a shock for all of our members in the party but frankly, the resolve that has risen from this has been quite overwhelming frankly and it’s really reinvigorated the base, our constituencies, our volunteers and our donors.

Tom Clark:

Well let me take you back about 10 days ago because there was a Christmas party two Friday’s ago, and you were one of the people incidentally who helped draft Danielle Smith to the party.  So at that party, did she…we know now that she was in full negotiations at that point, did she tell you anything?

Jeff Callaway:

No, in fact, it wasn’t two weeks ago, it was just Friday of a little over a week ago, frankly.  Just a few days and there was no inkling.  There was no indication.  There have been no discussions with anyone on the executive about a merger or anything of this sort and you know it’s very disappointing because…

Tom Clark:

Well I would imagine disappointing is the understatement.  I mean the fact of the matter is, not only did she deceive you I guess, but you know she lied to you.

Jeff Callaway:

Well, is it a lie or error of omission or however you would like to characterize it, but regardless, you know we’re very strong.  We’re still the official Opposition here in Alberta, albeit with a reduced caucus, but you know what, we’ve been lower before.  I mean I was also president from 2008 to 2010 when we experienced our strongest growth in much of the same kinds of political and economic conditions that we’re in today.  And frankly, I’m rather optimistic about our prospects going forward.

Tom Clark:

Well that is the definition of optimism but Jeff Callaway, are you sort of in retrospect kind of happy you lost the last provincial election because if you had won, she would have been the premier and now you’ve sort of seen what sort of person she is politically.  You must be happy you lost.

Jeff Callaway:

Well, I don’t think anyone’s ever happy that they lose politically, but you know what our message surrounding fiscal conservatism and social responsibility, those are things that we’re going to continue to pressure the government on.  We’ve been tremendously effective as an official Opposition.  We have in essence forced the resignation of two PC premiers and I think it can be properly characterized is that we are the tail that wags the government dog here in Alberta and we’re going to continue to do that.  Our party’s about more than just any one person.

Tom Clark:

Well in fairness though, you did all those things when you had a leader.  Now that you don’t and they jumped out of the trench and went over to the other army and so on, money is the life blood of politics, how on earth are you going to get anybody to donate to a party where the leader and most of the caucus decided the heck with you guys, we’re going to the other side.

Jeff Callaway:

Well as I mentioned, it’s really fired up our base and actually we sent out an e-mail to our members yesterday morning that’s on track to probably be our best fund-raising e-mail ever in this party.  And you know, we’re just…I can’t tell you how overwhelming the support just from in general Albertans and the members have been.  And you know we’re going to keep going and building.  We’ll announce a leadership race process here in the beginning of January.  You know we’ve got an announcement coming up on who our interim leader is going to be and we’re all working forward and reinvigorated.  We’ve raised over $2 million dollars a year.  We’ve structured our party such that we get donations from hundreds, if not thousands of individual donors.  We’re not beholding to singular large cheques like the PC party was in the 2012 election.

Tom Clark:

We’re going to have to leave it there but Mr. Callaway thank you very much for joining us and I hope next year is a better year for you than this one.  But thanks so much for being here.

Jeff Callaway:

I’m sure it will be.

Tom Clark:

Okay, thank you.

Well joining me now to discuss the broader implications of all of this, a keen observer of the Alberta political scene, Vassy Kapelos of Global News.  Vassy what do you make of this?  I mean he’s saying this is the best thing that ever happened to Wildrose, I mean really?

Vassy Kapelos:

Yeah, it’s an interesting statement for sure and I think you brought up a really good point.  Sure the base is angry and invigorated right now but they were able to raise a lot of money and do all they did when they had Danielle Smith as leader.  And to make no mistake, what she did was political opportunism but without her helming that party, I don’t know what the future looks like for them.

Tom Clark:

Well you know a lot about how this deal was done.  I don’t know anybody who’s got better contacts in Alberta politics than you do.  But what we all understood was, that she was going to become deputy premier and that they were going to be inserted into the cabinet.  Well it hasn’t happened yet, what are you hearing about that?

Vassy Kapelos:

Yeah, I’m hearing that there was a lot more promise than was delivered.  I think from the Wildrose perspective, this was looked at as a merger; clearly, not looked at that way from the PC perspective and especially Jim Prentice.  There was to be some sort of cabinet shuffle yesterday.  The staff was promised they’d stay on and in the end, none of that ended up happening.

Tom Clark:

Well 10 staff members in fact and now we’re trying to crowd source some money to get through Christmas, right?

Vassy Kapelos:

It’s unbelievable, exactly.  So I think that also shows when we’re looking into the future exactly what kind of role these new PCers will end up playing and I think there’s no doubt that Jim Prentice is in charge here, and I don’t think he’s going to give them a lot more room.

Tom Clark:

We’ve never seen anything like this in Canadian politics before, I mean so there’s no play book for this one.  Is Wildrose dead?

Vassy Kapelos:

Good question, I would say no.  In Alberta politics, I don’t know who you can count out.  You can’t count the PCs out, that’s for sure, but I don’t think they’re dead.  I think they are going to struggle and I wonder if they’ll remain on the fringes.  I know they’re optimistic that they won’t but without Danielle Smith or someone like her, it’s going to be tough for them to compete with this newly invigorated and stronger than ever political dynasty, the PCs.

Tom Clark:

You know when we always used to think that Newfoundland politics was the rock and roll scene in Canada but Alberta’s taken over.  Vassy Kapelos thanks for being here, I appreciate your time.

Vassy Kapelos:

Thanks for having me Tom.

Tom Clark:

Well coming up next, some veterans are so angry with Stephen Harper’s government that they are running to replace them.  We’ll find out why.

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Tom Clark:

Welcome back.  Well it’s hard to think of another political mess as damaging as what is going on between the government and many military veterans.  Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino has both evaded and alternately berated those who have complained about bad treatment but the Auditor General has strongly criticized his department for mishandling its duties.

Well joining me now are two former Afghanistan veterans:  Tim Laidler is a candidate for the Conservative Party, he joins us from Vancouver.  And, David McLeod is a candidate for the Liberal Party, he joins us from Halifax.  And welcome to you both.

It’s interesting that you’re both veterans but David, let me start with you.  You were a card carrying member of the Conservative Party.  Now you’re running as a candidate in Central Nova against Peter Mackay.  For you, is this all about the Veterans Affairs issue?

David McLeod:

No, it’s not.  Actually Tom, it’s really important to understand that this isn’t just about veterans.  My first priority is the economy in Central Nova.  We’ve had 15.5 per cent unemployment.  The second one of course is the environment and there are many issues within Central Nova that have to be addressed as well.  On top of that, yes the veterans issue is very important because let’s not forget, that’s where I came from.

Tom Clark:
Tim, let me go to you because what we’re hearing a lot of these days are veterans who are upset with the government.  You’re actually trying to represent the government.  Have you had any blowback or pushback at all from any of your former comrades?

Tim Laidler:

No, not so much.  And my experience with the government has been quite positive.  The reason I’m running for the Conservative Party, it started when I came back from Afghanistan.  I found a program that worked for me that helped me transition back from the University of British Columbia and the federal government came in, the politicians came in, supported that program, helped to grow it nationally with me and it’s a big part of the reason I’m running because I’ve seen how you can make a difference.

Tom Clark:

Yeah, but I’m wondering about that because you know there are many veterans, including as I said in the introduction, the Auditor General of Canada who has said in fact there is a lot broken in that department.  I mean, are you saying, Tim, that what you are seeing right now in Veterans Affairs is kind of the way it should be?

Tim Laidler:

No, there is a lot we need to do and there is a lot I’ve done in the last five years, working to help veterans, especially around the areas of mental health.  I ended up going back to the University of British Columbia and doing a masters in counseling psychology so I know this issue intimately.  I know we need to do more about it and there is more innovation we need to do to actually help treat things like post traumatic stress disorder and not just in the veteran population.  We’ve heard a lot about the suicides, but that’s a real issue for many Canadians, and it’s something we need to do as a nation.

Tom Clark:
okay, so David, let me throw this over to you then.  What Tim seems to be saying is that you know progress is being made, money is being spent, the majority of veterans seem to be happy with things so where is your point of contention then with this issue?

David McLeod:

Well to begin with, I think the entire thing, the entire Veterans Affairs Canada is in systematic failure and that’s indicated by the ongoing lawsuit as well as the other potential lawsuits that exist.  For example, let’s go back to Dennis Minogue when he had his lawsuit.  He won $880 million dollars for veterans.  But that’s still not complete because Minister Blaney promised that the earning loss benefit would be sorted out as well.  It hasn’t been.  On top of that, there is the ongoing Afghan war vets.  That lawsuit is continuing on and that’s a real challenge to the whole cornerstone of veterans’ care, which is the new Veterans Charter, which is failing.  Third is, the Veterans Review and Appeal Board.  Individual veterans are suing the Veterans Review and Appeal Board…not suing, sorry, challenging them in court because they are failing.  Now that’s the gateway, that’s the entry point, the gateway for many veterans and if they’re having a hard time pushing through that system, then they’re failed.

Tom Clark:

Okay, let me stop you there because I want Tim to deal with this.  And Tim, it does seem that the government that you want to represent is spending an awful lot of time in court facing veterans, including a statement in one court case where the government is maintaining that the Veterans Charter is actually just a political document that doesn’t really mean all that much.  I mean how do you defend that?

Tim Laidler:

Yeah, and you know the struggle with the new Veterans Charter, it is real.  And again, this is a document that was brought in by the Liberal government.  It got support from all three parties and we’ve been trying to work to make adjustments to this document to make it grow, and remember, the programs that are being put in place, they’re for a new generation of veteran.  They put this document in place and the Liberals themselves said it was intended to be a living document and to be debated upon and changed and grow the programs as a general population of veterans change and I think that’s what happened.  And I’ve seen firsthand myself; they’ve implemented new programs like the one I was involved in, along with many, many others.  And I believe that it’s the Conservative government that’s going to continue to make the adjustments necessary to do right by our veterans, like myself and like my colleagues.

Tom Clark:

But, but, but Tim, you know the government is saying in court, that this is a political document that really means nothing.  That’s what they’re saying in a court of law.  Now if that’s the case, a lot of veterans are saying, and you know David was making the point. A lot of them are appearing in court, saying well, what is the fundamental deal between the government and the veterans because a lot of veterans think that it is badly, badly broken.

Tim Laidler:

Yeah, I’m not an expert on the legal matters at hand.  What I do know, is there are programs available, and again, in my day job, where we go and talk to veterans and we explain to them the benefits that they are eligible to get, most are unaware of them.  Most don’t understand them and we try so hard to communicate exactly what they’re eligible for.  And once we get all the veterans into the new system and get them on the Earning Loss Benefit, which again, that’s monthly payments that come into veterans if they’re injured until they can work again, and that’s on top of the lump sum payment.  Many veterans don’t understand that there are those two programs available to them and that’s just an example.

Tom Clark:

Let me throw this to David.  What was interesting to me though is, here you’ve got two veterans, two Afghan veterans who are seeing this situation obviously from completely different points of view, but go ahead, what were you going to say David?

David McLeod:

What has to do with the Earning Loss Benefit, that’s not completely resolved, I mean you know Tim, you feel that people have free access to it but in fact they don’t, it’s actually restricted access.  And I think that’s mainly the real challenges that veterans in general are facing right now is a restricted access, the very tight access to these various programs because many of the programs are zero loaded.  And zero loaded means that money goes back or is recycled back to the government and that’s how you ended up with $1.133 billion dollars.  I mean Fantino’s been running around screaming that there’s $5 billion dollars going to veterans when in fact, there is not.  You know if you take that $5 billion, subtract $1.133 billion you’re not left with very much compared with what is being thrown out there in the media. So I think there is a lot of misunderstanding.

Tim Laidler:

I’ll agree with David…

Tom Clark:

Tim, I’ll give the last 15 seconds to you Tim, go ahead.

Tim Laidler:

I’ll agree with David that you know the issue here isn’t necessarily the program itself. It’s getting access to the program.  It’s advertising the programs.  Like I’ve said, there are still a small percentage of veterans that actually go to the government for any services.  We need to grow that number by advertising it and by cutting red tape to make it more accessible, and it’s the Conservative government that’s always done that and will continue to do it.

Tom Clark:

Okay, well we’ve heard the opening shots in what is going to be a battle between veterans over the issue of Veterans Affairs.  Tim Laidler and Dave McLeod, thank you very much for joining us today, I appreciate your time.

Tim Laidler:

Thank you.

David McLeod:

Pleasure’s been mine.

Tom Clark:

Well that’s our show for this week.  Thanks very much for joining us, and to you and yours, a very Merry Christmas.  I’m Tom Clark.  Join us here again next Sunday for another edition of The West Block.