Watch: The full broadcast of The West Block on Sunday, November 23, 2014. Hosted by Tom Clark.
Episode 11, Season 4
Sunday, November 23, 2014
Host: Tom Clark
Guest Interviews: General Frank Grass, General Tom Lawson, Rob Nicholson, General Charles Jacoby, Senator John McCain, Tim Kaine, Senator Ted Cruz
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Hello and welcome to this very special edition of The West Block from the Halifax International Security Forum.
Last month, this county came under attack. A terrorist attacked a soldier at Canada’s National War Memorial and then stormed onto Parliament Hill. And two days earlier, another terrorist attack killed a soldier in Saint–Jean–sur–Richelieu in Quebec. And if you had any doubts that these were in fact terrorist attacks, about an hour ago, I received a report from the Middle East saying that ISIS has now claimed responsibility for both those attacks.And in the meantime of course, Canada’s forces are fighting alongside its coalition partners in Iraq, trying to degrade and stop ISIS and stop the ISIS threat.
So, what do we do about this in North America? Well some would argue, that the world is an inherently dangerous place, unreliable, unpredictable, so let’s protect ourselves, let them fight it out over there. And they point out that in the past when we’ve intervened; we haven’t really helped ourselves that much anyway.
The other argument is this, that if, and the attacks last month in Canada would serve as a reminder of this, that if we don’t stop the threat over there, that threat is going to find us over here.
So, Fortress North America, how glorious, how free, that is what we’re discussing today. And let me introduce our panel, an extraordinary group of people here, starting with General Grass, the Director of the American National Guard, General Tom Lawson, the Canadian Chief of the Defence Staff, Rob Nicholson, Canada’s Minister of National Defence and General Charles Jacoby who is the Commander of both NORAD and NORTHCOM.
Let me start with the panel. You gentlemen know, as well, probably if not better than anybody else in this room, about the threats that we face in North America. And if I could just ask you quickly, what is the one thing that keeps you awake at night? General do you want to start?
General Frank Grass:
Thanks Tom. Probably the one thing that keeps me awake at night, more than anything else is, is a no-notice attack or a no-notice disaster. Being head of the National Guard and I work very close with Chuck Jacoby on that, and we’ve gotten very good at responding to regional type events, but I think the no-notice, large-scale and especially as the national looking out 10-20 years where we had more larger megacities, how are we going to take care of those people?
Tom Clark:
And just before I move on, when you say a no-notice attack, that’s one that we weren’t expecting that we didn’t know about before it happened.
General Frank Grass:
Yes.
Tom Clark:
Okay. General Lawson.
General Lawson:
Well kind of build on Frank’s point Tom, I would say that what would keep me awake at night is the sense that Canada might develop some sort of complacency that would come along with a notion of Canada being part of a fortress North America. A fortress gives a sense of walls, keeping away all threats when in fact, we’re anything but. That would develop a sense of complacency that may, in the future, might have Canadian public, the government, the military all ease the posture in place of what Frank’s talking about.
Tom Clark:
Minister?
Minister Rob Nicholson:
Well it’s the type of thing that we saw just a couple of weeks ago. I mean we know that the world changed after 9-11. I worry about the changes that we might see as a result of the attacks in Canada. And I worry that these things, we don’t want them to change the way we live our lives. We don’t want them to change the kind of society that we grow up in. And so, I worry about that, but this is the challenge that we have to meet.
Tom Clark:
General Jacoby?
General Charles Jacoby:
I’m going to follow something the minister just said, and that’s the military in both our countries because of law, custom, policy and tradition, we don’t necessarily lead in all of the security dimensions our people require. And so one of the things I worry about and I guess I just summarize, after three and a half years of being the NORAD and NORTHCOM Commander, it’s not one thing; it’s being late. It’s being late to need. Being late to need because we didn’t have the capability, we weren’t in position, we might not have had the relationship that was required and didn’t meet the needs of our people at a time of their greatest challenge.
Tom Clark:
So we briefly touched on what the problem is, so let me ask you then, is the solution to this, to all the fears and the existential threats that exist for North America, can we build, you mentioned in general, “Fortress North America”? Do we want to build it? And specifically, how would we go about doing that? Would it be a common security border perimeter defence, perimeter security as has been talked about in the past? General Lawson do you want to start with that?
General Tom Lawson:
Well to a certain extent I think Tom, we built it with whoever put in place the oceans, the big anti-tank ditches between us and many of the portions the world where threats might be developed and that provides a certain amount of safety to the three nations of North America. But I think that we may, if we take too much comfort from that, miss a fact that many threats probably less the existential ones and more the ones that hit more regularly, are already well within the fortress. We’ve already spoken here about a couple that happened in Ottawa and Saint Jean recently. Those are radicalized Canadians. They did not come from the outside. They were not going to be stopped by any fortress walls using any analogy; diseases, fires, floods, hurricanes which so often take up all of Frank’s national guard members and so many of our divisions of soldiers for sandbagging; cyber-attacks that are really already well within and it’s tough to put up any fortress walls. I think we have to recognize that any sense of fortress really is broken down when we understand that many of the threats are already well within.
Defence Minister Rob Nicholson:
We’ve seen this for quite some time. I mean the joint defence board that’s been in place since 1940; NORAD that was put together. Again, these are examples of Canada and the United States working together because there’s been long time recognition that there is no threat to the United States, that’s not a threat to Canada or vice versa. We understand that, and I think that this has been in place and when you see attacks like we have seen, this reinforces and makes the case for the importance of that relationship between the two countries, but quite apart from that, we have to remember that we have to sometimes deal with these things outside of the borders of the continent, and one of the things that we have made very clear with the airstrikes in Iraq is that a threat, the ISIL threat is not just a threat in that part of the world, it’s a threat right here. It’s a threat right here in Canada and so when we deal with it their way, in a sense we are dealing with it in a very real way here in Canada and the United States.
Tom Clark:
Minister let me veer off into politics with you a little bit because some people might feel that when you talk about a more integrated common defence strategy for North America, whatever that may entail, that there is an element of that that also suggests that countries like ours, the smaller partner in the relationship, inevitably has to give up a certain amount of sovereignty and control. From a political point of view because all this stuff has to be sold politically as well, how tough a sell is that?
Minister Rob Nicholson:
I think first of all, I don’t believe there is any giving up of sovereignty. I mean we enter into NORAD other arrangements with the United States or indeed other countries and we do that on our own. We make the decision that makes sense for us and so this is a relationship that has worked. Worked very, very closely again since 1940 and since the late ‘50’s when they put together NORAD, again the case has already been made and it’s in place. And so this cooperation between the two is very important. It works well and I think Canadians accept that. They understand the security threats to North America and indeed to the world and so it’s a relationship that works. So I don’t buy into the idea that somehow anybody’s giving up anything. I mean we’re a part of NATO; we’re not giving up anything.
Tom Clark:
Okay, I’m going to go up into the audience. I’m going to walk over here and if I could ask you to stand up and just identify yourself.
Christian White:
Yes sir, Christian White, I’m from the Hamilton Foundation. A question for the two distinguished Canadian panelists: we’ve seen in the United States a tremendous spike in illegal immigrants crossing the southern US border this year, so within the context of North American security, are you concerned about the unsecure US border?
Minister Rob Nicholson:
I think you directed it to the Canadians, in fact the Americans might want to answer that but certainly we have confidence in our American neighbours that they share many of the same concerns, the issues that we all do in North America. So yes, I do have confidence.
General Charles Jacoby:
I don’t want to leave my Canadian colleagues alone in the question on our border. I would propose to you though, that maybe a concern for others in Canada in particular would be, one of the imperatives or one of the problems along our border we share, and that’s the power and the violence of trans-national criminal organizations that exploit everyone’s borders. And so, there is no one illicit activity. There are many illicit activities and I think they are a threat to all of our societies. They are global in nature now. They are becoming powerful networks that along their distribution routes ride many evil things.
Tom Clark:
One of the other things in the Petraeus report was the concept of once admitted, thrice admitted. In other words, if you come in through the Canadian border, General Lawson you were talking about that refugee ship, if we accept those refugees into Canada and if there is going to be a common North American approach to this, what about that proposal of saying, if we accept refugees into Canada, that they should then be automatically accepted as refugees into Mexico and the United States. And Minister Nicholson, I see you laughing about that.
Minister Rob Nicholson:
Again, I don’t think that’s going to work quite frankly. I mean we all have our own rules with respect to accepting individuals or encouraging immigration or accepting refugees. These are national decisions and I don’t think quite frankly it would work. A decision by one country would be binding on another. I just don’t think that’s in the mix.
Tom Clark:
On that note we have to take a short break. We’re going to continue with more of this, right after this. Stay tuned.
Break
Tom Clark:
Welcome back to The West Block, from the Halifax International Security Forum. I want to point out something here; we have the largest congressional delegation ever to come to Canada, led by Senator John McCain of Arizona and Tim Kaine from Virginia. Thanks very much.
Senator McCain, you’ve been involved in this forum since the beginning. You’re obviously seized with the issue of how we operate here in North America, especially cooperatively. What do you think about the idea of creating a greater fortress North America? Does that make any sense to you?
Senator John McCain:
Well it makes a lot of sense to me because I think that there is very little doubt of what the intentions of ISIS is and other terrorist organizations, but particularly as we see them strengthening and enlarging their influence throughout the Middle East. Mr. Baghdadi, who is the leader as we know of ISIS, who spent four years in our Camp Bucca in Iraq on his way out the door said to his American captors then, he said “I’ll see you in New York.” And Mr. Baghdadi was not known for his sense of humour and so I don’t think there is any doubt that our director of national intelligence, the director of the CIA and our director of homeland security have all stated that ISIS over time, pose a direct threat to the United States of America, and that of course means Canada as well.
Tom Clark:
Senator Kaine, any concerns on your part about greater integration? Are their downsides to this?
Senator Kaine:
No downsides. There are going to be areas where the level of cooperation may not be complete integration but I always found, even as a mayor, my police force got along better with the county police force than any other area of government. The security level of cooperation is strong. The only quibble I would raise, I want to find a better word than fortress because fortress to me still kind of conveys a little bit of an inward looking, we put up the wall and we try to avoid penetration from outside. We have so much to offer the world on the offence side in values and trade, and culture. And you know whether its journalists who can do what they do, free from imprisonment or advances for marriage equality, we’ve got a lot to offer the world, so I want to find a better word than fortress. But the shared values have so much to offer not only within these three countries but beyond.
Tom Clark:
We’re going to continue on with some questions. Sir, do you have a question?
Roland Paris:
Thank you. Roland Paris from the University of Ottawa and I have a question about ballistic missile defence — continental ballistic missile defence. As you know, in 2005, the Government of Canada chose not to participate with the United States in the continental ballistic missile defence system. I’m wondering, I guess I have a question first for the minister whether this is something the Government of Canada is currently reconsidering.
Minister Rob Nicholson:
Perhaps I could begin by saying, you’re quite correct. In 2005, Canada said that it would not participate in ballistic missile defence. That being said, the issue has been raised again. We have a senate report that has been tabled that was unanimous in requesting that Canada considers a ballistic missile defence. And in know the House of Commons committee on defence is considering that as well. You may note in NATO…or at NATO conference that the wording within NATO is that the need for ballistic missile defence is not just a European concern but it’s a NATO concern and so it includes Canada and the United States, but there is no decision or change to that decision at the present time of course. But again, we have to consider both the recommendations, certainly the recommendations of the Senate and the views of the House of Commons on this.
General Jacoby:
From my standpoint as NORAD commander, Canada has been part of the missile warning for North America since its inception. I can’t afford to engage in the politics of you know how far along is North Korea. In my view and the intelligence committee’s view, North Korea now must be considered a practical threat to North America for attack by ICBMs with weapons of mass destruction. I think there is, the intent and the design of Iran, to achieve the same capabilities and I think the proliferation of missile technologies and weapons of mass destruction technologies keep that door open for other threats to emerge as well. So I believe that missile defence is important for the United States. It’s important for the continent. This is clearly a Canadian decision on where we join missions together and integrate missions in NORAD, and I’m quite comfortable with where we are right now, but working together on security as NORAD has demonstrated with Canada and the United States, is an enormous competitive advantage for us. And of course, any of the missions Canada joins with the United States, we gain from geography, we gain from technical capability and we would gain from human capital that Canada brings to everything that we do together jointly.
Tom Clark:
On that note, I’m going to interrupt for a second and say we’ve got to take another break, but we’re going to be back right after this. Stay tuned.
Break
Tom Clark:
Welcome back to the special edition of The West Block from the Halifax International Security Forum. And we were talking about threats to the grid system, the electrical grid in North America. And is Admiral Mike Rogers with us?
I can either quote you Admiral or you can say it yourself. You’ve known about this for a long time but now it’s public. And can you give me 30 seconds on what that threat is that you see?
Admiral Mike Rogers:
I have stated that I’m concerned about the security of some of the basic infrastructure that North America, both Canada, the United States, I’m sure it’s the same for my Mexican teammates, that the basic infrastructure has basic vulnerabilities in the computer arena. That it was not designed in many ways to reflect the realities of the world we’re living in today. And I’m watching nation states pay attention to those vulnerabilities and it’s not just because they have idol curiosity, I don’t believe.
Tom Clark:
Well we’ve heard from Admiral Rogers, if indeed our entire electrical grid is at risk, can you game this out for me? What on earth do we do if we’re attacked in that way? National Guard would be first up.
General Frank Grass:
One of the things that Admiral Rogers did when he first came into the job was come and visit me. I think we’ve been together like what, six or seven times now. And the difficult part in the homeland of course the governors came to us and said we want a capability in every state. Of course we can’t afford that, but at the same time, private-public partnerships own most of our infrastructure, so how do we work through the authorities. And we’re working through. We just did an excellent exercise in July with all these agencies and a lot of our military, both active guard and reserve, trying to get after the problem but in the end, I think there is going to have to be some very serious debate on authorities and what’s private, what’s public, and when does the president step in. When can the president step in? And with all the proprietary information, it is, I know that Mike’s spending a lot of time on that right now.
Tom Clark:
And because the grid is so interconnected between the two countries and eventually with Mexico as well, you’re the next on the phone call general.
General Tom Lawson:
Thanks Tom. I generalize the question a little bit. The grid is one of the vulnerabilities out there but they are too numerous to mention and a point that Chuck made a little while ago is that many of these things don’t fall under defence to start. They fall under police forces, security…you know the very first response is coming from power agencies, but very quickly, it could fall to defence and three of the individuals you see sitting here when asked to aid the civil power. That doesn’t just happen. The call just happens but a good response has to be based on a lot of exercise. Chuck just talked about a couple of exercises. The most expensive, the most elaborate exercise that we hold in Canada each year, up north is a whole of government exercise with Department of National Defence, provincial representatives, local representatives, local police forces, and then each time we go through it, we take away the lessons that we want to that are fed into the next exercise. And each of these adds to our readiness posture for when these actually do come to bear.
Tom Clark:
I want to bring a new voice into here: Senator Ted Cruz of Texas. First of all, welcome to Canada, senator. You’ve been rather outspoken, especially about the situation your country faces on your southern border. When you think of an integrated North American defence, first of all, how does that strike you? What are the vulnerabilities and can this happen before you’ve resolved the problem on your southern border?
Senator Ted Cruz:
Well I think we certainly have common threats abroad and our defence needs are closely integrated. And there is a reason that we are such close friends and allies. There is a serious problem in the southern border of the United States and unfortunately, as the world gets more dangerous, as we see ISIS, as we see horrible diseases like Ebola, not having the southern border secured exposes our nation and also exposes Canada to significant perils. And it seems to me there is an imperative for us to step up and do something about that.
Tom Clark:
Are you concerned about the Canada-US border?
Senator Ted Cruz:
We have seen far less of a problem on the northern border. There is not a population seeking in significant quantities to come illegally across that border the way there has been on the southern border. And that’s where the security presence is manifesting. That’s also where you see the heavy concentration of trans-national drug cartels that are smuggling both drugs and people, and right now, smuggling children in vast quantities.
Tom Clark:
Rob Nicholson, I would guess that when you look ahead, what you don’t see is a version of the European Union here in North America.
Minister Rob Nicholson:
No, I don’t see that of course, but greater cooperation between Canada and the United States is certainly important. And I’ll state my bias to begin with, I have four border crossings in my constituency and I’m very interested and concerned for the border, but the main reason is this is the largest trading relationship in the world. That border has to work for the prosperity of both our countries, and so if you’re asking me what I expect and hope over 10 years, I hope that border is even more fluid between both our countries. Yes, we have security concerns, but trade is absolutely vital to both of these countries. The border has to work. I want to see that.
Tom Clark:
General Jacoby, Rob Nicholson, Tom Lawson – General Tom Lawson, sorry about that, and General Grass, thanks very much. And to the congressional delegation from the United States to all of you, thank you so much for joining us for this. It’s been terrific and I’ll just say that The West Block wraps up its special edition from the Halifax International Security Forum. We’ll be back in Ottawa next Sunday.
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